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KDE 4.7.3 Is Here WIth More Fixes

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  • #16
    @Alejandro,

    It is very nice if they have indeed improved Nepomuk stability. But my point is why release it at first place and integrate it heavily when it is buggy. After all, most people do not need it.

    I could probably use Icon Tasks or even some of the other task managers for KDE. But apparently the problem is with kwin (the window decorator/manager) not sending the right signals to taskmanager when one closes a window - at least that is my (possibly incorrect) understanding after wading through the bug threads. But my bigger gripe is that it was working before, so this is a regression, and to me a very obvious and intolerable regression - a feature that is expected to work flawlessly on even ancient desktop environments - so I am disappointed that they released this software at first place.

    @devius,

    Furthermore, just when I thought I somewhat understood semantic desktop, and it seemed somewhat cool, although a niche feature and not useful to me, they add something called "activities" stuff to the mix. Why do does a regular user need to know a new fancy desktop concept and paradigm every time they have a point release in 6 months, and that too a broken one at it.

    Also, obscure names like nepomuk, akonadi or strigi, and their related error messages are even more baffling.

    @kraftman,

    What is even funnier is that the KDM problem with X server crashing at logout has been so common that I had disabled the reset X server feature a long time back (about 2 years ago, on my Gentoo Linux system). But somehow upstream apparently has no problems on any of their machines I guess, so it is still there in the default config file.

    On a different note, I also wonder what is the point of all these different distributions, and why don't they share bug fixes and config files freely among themselves and upstream. Its nice to talk about choice, but currently it seems they more or less offer the same fundamental thing, all of them duplicating most of the effort. I can see that Slackware, Gentoo, Debian are different in a deeper way, but I don't see a huge difference between Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/Fedora/Suse/Mandriva in terms of functionality.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by hdas View Post
      This is probably not the best place to rant about things, but AFAIK unfortunately KDE 4.7 has a severe taskmanager bug where entries from closed applications remain in the taskbar. While there are several variants of this problem, and unfortunately too many bug reports about it, I am primarily talking about bugs.kde.org # 275469. I would also refer to bug #'s 277010, 278869 and # 224447. I am although happy to see that this obvious bug is currently being looked at by developers.
      I cannot reproduce those problems here but I am using the rather excellent icon tasks taskbar replacement http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php...content=144808.

      On that note, why do they need to offload more drawing things to the graphics processor - I understand it is more efficient, faster and all that, but CPU's are already fast enough and extremely stable at doing such stuff. (I can imagine even a lowly netbook CPU like Atom or Fusion will do just fine on such drawing operations.) So why release some untested crap and break things.
      It depends on how much you want to be doing with your processor at the same time. Graphics processors are orders of magnitude faster at some operations. Basically unless you have enough people testing the software before it is released (that is on a wide enough range of hardware) it will be untested (this is almost by definition).

      PS. I know of two good software based compositors. One was in versions of OSX up to Lion and the other is the one in Enlightenment version 0.17. Both took a *lot* of effort to get right.

      Unfortunately some parts of the Linux Graphics stack still suck and until somebody actually uses those features and the get tested and debugged they are going to continue to suck.
      Last edited by kayosiii; 11-02-2011, 07:23 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by kayosiii View Post
        I cannot reproduce those problems here but I am using the rather excellent icon tasks taskbar replacement http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php...content=144808
        Surrender, hdas. Resistance is futile. Icon Tasks owns everything else

        Anyway, in KDE 4.8 the taskbar, like anything else in your Plasma desktop, gets a rewrite in QML (to support tray icons along tasks), and those Akonadi and Nepomuk names are gone. The solution for all your issues may be weeks away. About Icon Tasks working where the normal Taskbar fails... that probes the bug is in the taskbar. I've tried Smooth Tasks, also with good results. If you install Smooth Tasks and expand all tasks, you get a very Default Taskbar-like look.

        Also, this is Free Software after all. If you want a stable Nepomuk layer, you need testing and someone willing to bugfix. The second part was achieved two months ago, and we are already feeling the difference. Remember that Nepomuk is the same thing Microsoft tried and ditched (do you remember WinFS?), so it's 10x more complicated to try a never tried before thing.
        Last edited by Alejandro Nova; 11-02-2011, 11:55 PM.

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        • #19
          Networkmanager?

          Originally posted by hdas View Post
          This is probably not the best place to rant about things, but AFAIK unfortunately KDE 4.7 has a severe taskmanager bug where entries from closed applications remain in the taskbar. While there are several variants of this problem, and unfortunately too many bug reports about it, I am primarily talking about bugs.kde.org # 275469. I would also refer to bug #'s 277010, 278869 and # 224447. I am although happy to see that this obvious bug is currently being looked at by developers.

          What is unfortunate is that many distributions are shipping it right now in their stable releases, including Kubuntu, Sabayon etc. I tested Sabayon in a virtual machine and it had this bug of closed tasks remaining in task manager. Worst more, I saw a review of Ubuntu on Distrowatch the other day and these days the reviews are so shallow that they miss out on obvious bugs - so much that I think you can see it in their attached screenshot (if I am correct). (I should add that in a quick run of Kubuntu in a virtual machine today, I was not able to see that bug.) It looks that Linus's Law that "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" is not so true after all.

          While this bug was the primary reason I have reverted back to KDE 4.6, there are numerous other stability issues. KDE crashing on logout is a usual happening. Also there are random Nepomuk crashes and messages -- worst, I do not care for it or need it and do not know why is it part of the main distribution. Apparently the Changelog in KDE 4.7.3 claims to have fixed some of the Nepomuk issues. However in my opinion, KDE 4.7 should be marked as not-ready for production and should not be used until many of these bugs are fixed. It would come as a disappointment to those who are using anything stable (even if something ancient like Windows XP perhaps where basic things work).

          Overall, the stability of KDE as fallen dramatically since KDE 4.5. I found a few hard hitting bugs in KDE 4.6, but 4.7 has gone really low. I appreciate the immense hard work the KDE developers put in, especially that it is mostly all volunteer effort and I also understand that developers are free to work on whatever projects they are interested in. But I cannot help to see that they advertise all these fancy features like social integration, semantic desktop, composting effects and other random things nobody cares about, while standard features get neglected. I would add that last time I checked few months back, the kde networkmanager or knetworkmanager project is still not in a good shape - what good is all this social integration if you are not connected to the internet or you still have to use konsole to connect to internet to use a shiny interface for tweeting. Ironically, I am using nm-applet (from gnome) currently on my KDE 4.6 desktop.

          <sarcasm>I am waiting for comments who will say I should use Gnome/TWM or update my graphics driver or change distribution or bug denial reports or a constructive but poor workaround, including not using the taskmanager at all.</sarcasm>
          I've never been a fan of this stack. For normal Network/Wireless the KDE wicd client is really enough. Only if you want to do vpn connection via GUI is not supported by wicd.
          So ask your distribution, whatever you use, to implement wicd with KDE or give the users a choice.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by kraftman View Post
            What's funny nobody from Kubuntu bothered to fix this issue. They didn't even push workaround and newbies probably don't even know how to fix this. At least in 11.04, because I didn't try 11.10.
            It isn't always that simple. Workarounds often cause problems in other areas or for other people. Usually defaults are chosen that work with as many systems as possible.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by hdas View Post
              Furthermore, just when I thought I somewhat understood semantic desktop, and it seemed somewhat cool, although a niche feature and not useful to me, they add something called "activities" stuff to the mix. Why do does a regular user need to know a new fancy desktop concept and paradigm every time they have a point release in 6 months, and that too a broken one at it.
              You do realize that activities have been around since the 4.0 release, right?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                It isn't always that simple. Workarounds often cause problems in other areas or for other people. Usually defaults are chosen that work with as many systems as possible.
                In this case it's enough to restart X server on logout. It's easily done by enabling single line in kdm configuration file:

                /etc/kde4/kdm/kdmrc

                #Terminate-server = true

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                • #23
                  @ TheBlackCat,

                  Sorry, I didn't notice activities till KDE 4.7. (At least I don't remember any activities button/bar, and I think the activities "desktop" is now default on a fresh profile.)

                  @ disi,

                  Its possible wicd is better. (I think at the time I started using networkmanager, it had more features than wicd, and if I remember correctly, the support for wpa2-enterprise wireless auth used at my university.) However, I am pretty content with networkmanager and nm-applet. nm-applet seems to have good support for vpn, but I ended up configuring manually without networkmanager.

                  I do feel KDE should maintain a networkmanager applet or some other applet for network connections. Given that nm-applet is fairly robust and mature, I think KDE should be able to offer something similar too.

                  @Alejandro, @kayosiii,

                  I guess I will try out Icon Tasks whenever I get time . For the problem of closed tasks not leaving the taskmanager, I believe it is present with taskmanagers other than the default one too, and as I mentioned, it is apparently an issue with kwin. I am also sticking to kde 4.6 for some time and perhaps won't even bother to look at 4.8.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by zhu7916zhaoso
                    While this bug was the primary reason I have reverted back to KDE 4.6, there are numerous other stability issues. KDE crashing on logout is a usual happening. Also there are random Nepomuk crashes and messages -- worst, I do not care for it or need it and do not know why is it part of the main distribution. Apparently the Changelog in KDE 4.7.3 claims to have fixed some of the Nepomuk issues. However in my opinion, KDE 4.7 should be marked as not-ready for production and should not be used until many of these bugs are fixed. It would come as a disappointment to those who are using anything stable (even if something ancient like Windows XP perhaps where basic things work).
                    Basically, Nepomuk is there for programs that use Nepomuk. Try Bangarang. It loads as fast as XMMS, does 80% of what Amarok does, and then some things Amarok will never do. A library based music player at the cost of a library-less one, with MP3 searching essentially for free, that's only ONE of the thing Nepomuk is about. Also, persistent tagging of your files, ratings, and desktop searches.

                    AFAIK, the next step is to change the file visualization to be less like Windows Explorer and more like this.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9ifQvQCO7Y

                    See the folder animations? Those are there with Dolphin 2.0.

                    Originally posted by zhu7916zhaoso
                    Pretty girls are pretty.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hdas View Post
                      I would add that last time I checked few months back, the kde networkmanager or knetworkmanager project is still not in a good shape - what good is all this social integration if you are not connected to the internet or you still have to use konsole to connect to internet to use a shiny interface for tweeting. Ironically, I am using nm-applet (from gnome) currently on my KDE 4.6 desktop.
                      I may have missed this, but which distro are you using? A bunch of distros are shipping really ancient versions of the networkmanager plasmoid (I think kubuntu and debian are pretty notorious for this). If you are really using knetworkmanager and not the plasmoid (you need to check), then you are using something even more ancient that has been deprecated and unsupported for a long time, maybe even a couple of years.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by hdas View Post
                        @ disi,

                        Its possible wicd is better. (I think at the time I started using networkmanager, it had more features than wicd, and if I remember correctly, the support for wpa2-enterprise wireless auth used at my university.) However, I am pretty content with networkmanager and nm-applet. nm-applet seems to have good support for vpn, but I ended up configuring manually without networkmanager.

                        I do feel KDE should maintain a networkmanager applet or some other applet for network connections. Given that nm-applet is fairly robust and mature, I think KDE should be able to offer something similar too.
                        I didn't mean in a better kind of way, but rather in a smaller more control kind of way. Straight to the point and not saving passwords in connection to some keyring pool stuff etc. like I remember from Gnome. (you can save passphrases or keys for wireless connections in wicd, but it is easy to remove the key etc.)
                        I use wicd purely to connect wired or to wireless networks (also wpa2 encrypted). You can define everything in the kde client, like what modules to use and which scripts to run or run scripts on connection, static stuff etc.
                        Just no vpn per default (which you actual could script yourself and put it into the client)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by hdas View Post
                          Overall, the stability of KDE as fallen dramatically since KDE 4.5. I found a few hard hitting bugs in KDE 4.6, but 4.7 has gone really low. I appreciate the immense hard work the KDE developers put in, especially that it is mostly all volunteer effort and I also understand that developers are free to work on whatever projects they are interested in. But I cannot help to see that they advertise all these fancy features like social integration, semantic desktop, composting effects and other random things nobody cares about, while standard features get neglected. I would add that last time I checked few months back, the kde networkmanager or knetworkmanager project is still not in a good shape - what good is all this social integration if you are not connected to the internet or you still have to use konsole to connect to internet to use a shiny interface for tweeting. Ironically, I am using nm-applet (from gnome) currently on my KDE 4.6 desktop.
                          The original KNetworkmanager is no longer supported. Switch to the Network Manager plasmoid.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Wicd hasa never worked for me. The Network Manager plasmoid does and I like how it integrates with KWallet, but it's not nearly as smooth as the gnome-applet.

                            In any case, this is a significant issue with KDE. This is 2011 when all devices are connected to the network - the lack of good integrated network management capabilities is a losing proposition.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by hdas View Post
                              Incidentally, I have Nvidia graphics (GTX 460M and 275.28) and the logout crashes I have are random. For sometime, I thought it had something to do with power management since it was easier to reproduce when I used to plug out the adapter from my notebook, then plug it back in, and then when I tried to log out or shutdown, the usual kde crash.

                              On that note, why do they need to offload more drawing things to the graphics processor - I understand it is more efficient, faster and all that, but CPU's are already fast enough and extremely stable at doing such stuff. (I can imagine even a lowly netbook CPU like Atom or Fusion will do just fine on such drawing operations.) So why release some untested crap and break things.
                              The idea is to reduce CPU utilization so that the CPU can do other things.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
                                Wicd hasa never worked for me. The Network Manager plasmoid does and I like how it integrates with KWallet, but it's not nearly as smooth as the gnome-applet.

                                In any case, this is a significant issue with KDE. This is 2011 when all devices are connected to the network - the lack of good integrated network management capabilities is a losing proposition.
                                Describing software as "smooth" is only understood by the person who said it.

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