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Miguel de Icaza Starts New Company To Drive Mono

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  • #61
    Originally posted by ean5533 View Post
    Finally, an aside: You asked why one doesn't see more software written with mono. Perhaps it's because every time someone tries to write a piece of software with mono, they get shit on by the FOSS community. Consider that.
    I totally agree with you on what is the big draw for C# (and Java), which is rapid development in the enterprise space. However, when it comes to desktop software, 'getting shit done in three weeks' is seldom the primary goal. Rather, desktop software that ends up 'preferred' is usually that which performs it's tasks quickly while using minimal resources. I know I certainly prefer such software.

    Obviously there's alot of desktop software where performance or memory usage doesn't really make a big difference between a native C/C++ implementation versus a C#/Java version, but in this space interpreted languages like Python seems often preferred. I predict that Java and C# will continue to dominate the enterprise sector but I doubt that they will gain much traction on the desktop (from what I've seen, not even on Windows has C#/NET made it big on the desktop).

    Maybe I'm biased though, my primary development languages are C/C++ and Python

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
      Besides, KDE sucks.
      What I will say here will scary you:

      Gnome will die! Icaza has started its development and you know de things he starts simply dies.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by V!NCENT View Post
        But tell me something... What high-profile killer software is written in Gtk and Mono? Why is serious killer software on Windows written in C++ on top of Win32?

        The idea that I'm getting with. Net and C# folk so far is that they don't even know what an API is.They learned C# and. Net crap in school and simply end up doing sysadmin shit (no offence, this is a software engineering turnaround ) instead of writing anything even remotely serious.

        So BlaclStar, mister awesome, what have you written in that perfect language of yours that rival high quality Qt applications? Do you even get remotely close? If Qt and C++ sucks so much, then why does all good software get written in it (or win32 for that manner)?
        First of all NOT all applications are written in Qt and C++.
        Firefox does not use Qt, Mono (as runntime) does not use C++, the killer applications as far as I know for a regular person are OpenOffice (uses VCL a custom UI toolkit), a media player (right now Mono based by default in Ubuntu).
        Applications that are not written in Qt are all mainstream applications. Photoshop Elements is the single Photoshop in entire suite, and no plugins were integrated with "superior" Qt's plugin API.
        Let's compare mainstream applications you can download today in .Net/Mono: MonoDevelop/SharpDevelop are replacements for Microsoft Visual C#. A WebServer included (XSP/ASP.Net) with .Net runtimes. The same happens with Java.
        Which is today's competitor for Paint.Net? For mainstream users? Gimp?
        F-Spot against Shotwell shows that before it appears a language close enough to C#, for 4 years at least it was no valid replacement in Gtk+ area. GtkMM with C++ did not make such of a difference. Tomboy Notes was replaced in 3 years with a C++ equivalent in 3-4 years.
        As of today I know a technology that have mainly no replacement: Moonlight Desktop (a Silverlight based package) for people investigating how to put animations in their desktop.
        QML as replacement appears after two years late compared with WPF/XAML by default in Visual Studio. Yet, the Nokia engineers were smart enough to not use C++ to program in it, but JavaScript. Gnome Shell? Again JavaScript. Why not C++ if is such of a killer language (to create Qt and KDE, in rest all run like from plague)?
        The last killer application that everyone may use that certainly does not use Qt, and probably just little C++, is SecondLife.
        Qt killer application? As far as I know is only one that a lot of people use: Opera Browser, which uses a Qt3 version... And for me, VirtualBox.
        On Windows is certainly less used in raw downloads than SharpDevelop, the easiest to date free IDE to make small application development.
        Conclusion: Qt and C++ sucks

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by ciplogic View Post
          Qt killer application? As far as I know is only one that a lot of people use: Opera Browser, which uses a Qt3 version...
          Opera no longer uses Qt.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
            Opera no longer uses Qt.
            Thank you, great point... I installed Opera (beta) on Linux and you're right, no Qt library is mapped! Seems that Gtk is always better

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by ciplogic View Post
              Thank you, great point... I installed Opera (beta) on Linux and you're right, no Qt library is mapped! Seems that Gtk is always better
              It better slows Linux down, that's for sure.

              Comment


              • #67
                the best thing is:

                The Mono guys were laid off - because the customers of Novell/Attachmate didn't ask for Mono software.

                So his latest project is pretty much a 'set up shop, spout some shit about my awesomeness until a big player buys this crap' scheme. Just like Ximian

                edit: and opera might have stopped using qt - chromium is using it.
                Last edited by energyman; 05-20-2011, 10:06 PM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
                  Opera no longer uses Qt.
                  neither is gtk needed. It all depends on the configure flags.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by energyman View Post
                    edit: and opera might have stopped using qt - chromium is using it.
                    Do you mean it's possible to run Chromium with Qt?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      well it does pull in Qt libs:
                      ldd /usr/lib64/chromium-browser/chrome
                      linux-vdso.so.1 => (0x00007fff0730a000)
                      libpthread.so.0 => /lib64/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f833bf0b000)
                      libdl.so.2 => /lib64/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f833bd07000)
                      libicui18n.so.48 => /usr/lib64/libicui18n.so.48 (0x00007f833b92e000)
                      libicuuc.so.48 => /usr/lib64/libicuuc.so.48 (0x00007f833b5bc000)
                      libicudata.so.48 => /usr/lib64/libicudata.so.48 (0x00007f833a263000)
                      libm.so.6 => /lib64/libm.so.6 (0x00007f8339fdd000)
                      libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib64/libX11.so.6 (0x00007f8339c98000)
                      libXrender.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libXrender.so.1 (0x00007f8339a8d000)
                      libXss.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libXss.so.1 (0x00007f8339889000)
                      libXext.so.6 => /usr/lib64/libXext.so.6 (0x00007f8339675000)
                      librt.so.1 => /lib64/librt.so.1 (0x00007f833946c000)
                      libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f8338e23000)
                      libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f8338b6b000)
                      libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f833895d000)
                      libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f833873d000)
                      libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib64/libcairo.so.2 (0x00007f833840e000)
                      libpng14.so.14 => /usr/lib64/libpng14.so.14 (0x00007f83381e2000)
                      libpango-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libpango-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f8337f94000)
                      libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib64/libfreetype.so.6 (0x00007f8337cf7000)
                      libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x00007f8337abf000)
                      libgobject-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libgobject-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f833786b000)
                      libgthread-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libgthread-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f8337666000)
                      libglib-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libglib-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f8337347000)
                      libevent-2.0.so.5 => /usr/lib64/libevent-2.0.so.5 (0x00007f83370ff000)
                      libz.so.1 => /lib64/libz.so.1 (0x00007f8336ee7000)
                      libjpeg.so.8 => /usr/lib64/libjpeg.so.8 (0x00007f8336c99000)
                      libsmime3.so => /usr/lib64/libsmime3.so (0x00007f8336a6a000)
                      libnssutil3.so => /usr/lib64/libnssutil3.so (0x00007f833684a000)
                      libnss3.so => /usr/lib64/libnss3.so (0x00007f8336514000)
                      libplc4.so => /usr/lib64/libplc4.so (0x00007f833630f000)
                      libnspr4.so => /usr/lib64/libnspr4.so (0x00007f83360cf000)
                      libresolv.so.2 => /lib64/libresolv.so.2 (0x00007f8335eb4000)
                      libxml2.so.2 => /usr/lib64/libxml2.so.2 (0x00007f8335b5a000)
                      libxslt.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libxslt.so.1 (0x00007f8335920000)
                      libwebp.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libwebp.so.0 (0x00007f83356f9000)
                      libcups.so.2 => /usr/lib64/libcups.so.2 (0x00007f83354a6000)
                      libgcrypt.so.11 => /usr/lib64/libgcrypt.so.11 (0x00007f8335227000)
                      libbz2.so.1 => /lib64/libbz2.so.1 (0x00007f8335017000)
                      libvpx.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libvpx.so.0 (0x00007f8334d80000)
                      libasound.so.2 => /usr/lib64/libasound.so.2 (0x00007f8334a9b000)
                      libexpat.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libexpat.so.1 (0x00007f8334870000)
                      libFLAC.so.8 => /usr/lib64/libFLAC.so.8 (0x00007f8334635000)
                      libspeex.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libspeex.so.1 (0x00007f833441a000)
                      libdbus-glib-1.so.2 => /usr/lib64/libdbus-glib-1.so.2 (0x00007f83341f2000)
                      libdbus-1.so.3 => /usr/lib64/libdbus-1.so.3 (0x00007f8333fa9000)
                      libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.5.2/libstdc++.so.6 (0x00007f8333c9a000)
                      libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib64/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007f8333a83000)
                      libc.so.6 => /lib64/libc.so.6 (0x00007f83336d8000)
                      /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f833c129000)
                      libxcb.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libxcb.so.1 (0x00007f83334b8000)
                      libXfixes.so.3 => /usr/lib64/libXfixes.so.3 (0x00007f83332b1000)
                      libatk-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libatk-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f833308e000)
                      libgio-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libgio-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f8332d5d000)
                      libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f8332b2f000)
                      libgmodule-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libgmodule-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f833292b000)
                      libXi.so.6 => /usr/lib64/libXi.so.6 (0x00007f833271b000)
                      libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/lib64/libXrandr.so.2 (0x00007f8332512000)
                      libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libXcursor.so.1 (0x00007f8332307000)
                      libXcomposite.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libXcomposite.so.1 (0x00007f8332104000)
                      libXdamage.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libXdamage.so.1 (0x00007f8331f01000)
                      libpixman-1.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libpixman-1.so.0 (0x00007f8331c88000)
                      libEGL.so.1 => /usr/lib64/libEGL.so.1 (0x00007f8331a76000)
                      libQtGui.so.4 => /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtGui.so.4 (0x00007f8330dc0000)
                      libQtCore.so.4 => /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtCore.so.4 (0x00007f833091f000)
                      libxcb-shm.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libxcb-shm.so.0 (0x00007f833071c000)
                      libxcb-render.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libxcb-render.so.0 (0x00007f8330512000)
                      fglrx-libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib64/fglrx-libGL.so.1 (0x00007f833030b000)
                      libplds4.so => /usr/lib64/libplds4.so (0x00007f8330107000)
                      libgnutls.so.26 => /usr/lib64/libgnutls.so.26 (0x00007f832fe57000)
                      libgpg-error.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007f832fc53000)
                      libogg.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libogg.so.0 (0x00007f832fa4c000)
                      libXau.so.6 => /usr/lib64/libXau.so.6 (0x00007f832f848000)
                      libXdmcp.so.6 => /usr/lib64/libXdmcp.so.6 (0x00007f832f642000)
                      libSM.so.6 => /usr/lib64/libSM.so.6 (0x00007f832f439000)
                      libICE.so.6 => /usr/lib64/libICE.so.6 (0x00007f832f21c000)
                      libtasn1.so.3 => /usr/lib64/libtasn1.so.3 (0x00007f832f00a000)
                      libuuid.so.1 => /lib64/libuuid.so.1 (0x00007f832ee05000)
                      Last edited by energyman; 05-21-2011, 05:31 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by energyman View Post
                        neither is gtk needed. It all depends on the configure flags.
                        It's official, energyman is chuck norris. He can compile closed-source Opera from source.

                        Jesting aside, Opera will dynamically load what it needs (kdelibs or gtk, IIRC) and will fall back to plain X rendering if necessary. This is the best solution, provided you have enough manpower.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          have I said 'compiling'? I wrote 'need'

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Man, I read through these posts and I can't believe how negative some people can be.

                            Novell sponsored Mono development with M$ blessing. Why would M$ do such a thing? Pretend cross-platform compatibility? Make a couple Linux and Mac OS X devs switch to Mono and, hopefully, to Windows some day? It doesn't matter why, and Novell were no tourists, so they made an informed decision on this matter.

                            Is any company pursuing the Mono project liable if M$ want so? Yes, because the Mono project reverse-engineered a lot more than what M$ made public on the .NET specs. But that applies to 99.99% of anything an IT shop does. Once you hit the market with a new product, something that everybody wants, there will be a gazillion hungry wolfs out there making claims on your IP, asking to get a piece of it. Companies you never knew existed will claim that you infringed on their patents. This is how the IT industry works these days. And they actually don't want to go to trial, they just want a quick settlement. And the more money you made "infringing" on their IP, the more you'll have to pay to settle. The RedHat CEO once said that it's better to settle, even if you know you are right, cause it is cheaper, in the end.

                            M$ have no reason to kill Mono, or bring de Icaza and the gang down or anything--for now. When and if Xamarin or others make a lot of money (ahem!) selling Mono/Monotouch/Monodroid/whatever, then sure, there may be a settlement with M$. But that would happen even if all .NET specifications were made public. There will always be some loophole for a lawyer to discover, some detail that someone missed that will allow a company to drag another one to trial.

                            Now, I also noticed that Mono haters would have everybody think like they do. Have the same values. Teach the "plebeans" the good from the bad. What to do and what not to. This reminds me of two similar crowds: Linux evangelists and religious people. No further comments.

                            I have recently tried C#.NET, after many years of avoiding it, and it looks great. And BTW, I use MonoDevelop on Windows at work because I cannot update Visual Studio Express on my office computer due to IT policy restrictions. In a way, it was negative comments that I read on .NET that brought it to my attention and made me give it a try. In the end, it was a good for me that I read those comments.
                            Last edited by tr00don; 06-07-2011, 12:00 PM.

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