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KDE SC 4.6.2 Codename Is Dedicated To GNOME 3.0

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  • #31
    Sounds similar

    Originally posted by Joe Sixpack View Post
    It's the same old vast generalizations without specifics, and when you do confront a GNOME user with features they are lacking, they simply ignore it and say "well it does what I need it to do.." Seriously? It's like it'll kill them to admit they aren't perfect. Their community always has been like that, and it probably always will be.
    http://www.strandconsult.dk/sw4031.asp

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Joe Sixpack View Post
      a KDE user's usual complaint:

      GNOME won't let me configure <option>
      GNOME app is lacking <feature>
      I don't care for gconf
      I don't care for the default GNOME interface

      a GNOME user's criticism:

      KDE sucks
      KDE is bloated.
      KDE4 was a disaster
      QT was evil because of the license

      It's the same old vast generalizations without specifics, and when you do confront a GNOME user with features they are lacking, they simply ignore it and say "well it does what I need it to do.." Seriously? It's like it'll kill them to admit they aren't perfect. Their community always has been like that, and it probably always will be.
      KDE is bloated.
      KDE is ugly.
      KDE's usability sucks.
      KDE is overengineered.
      KDE is unpolished.
      Qt is cool.

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      • #33
        KDE 4.6.2 got released, and the bugs keep piling up. None of the bugs were fixed, and new have been added (now it's impossible to shutdown the machine from KDE; it just brings you to a console.)

        How classy is that?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
          KDE 4.6.2 got released, and the bugs keep piling up. None of the bugs were fixed, and new have been added (now it's impossible to shutdown the machine from KDE; it just brings you to a console.)

          How classy is that?
          Are you kidding? A lot of bugs were fixed for 4.6.2. I suppose what you mean is "none of my pet bugs were fixed". I can tell you a bunch of my pet bugs were (especially issues with GHNS).

          And I am not sure what you mean about not being able to shut down the machine, I shut it down all the time just fine.

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          • #35
            Learn from history

            Originally posted by kraftman View Post
            LOL!!! That list actually brought back some memories..

            1) Gnome USERS: So what that KDE looks better - it's just useless eyecandy

            Then:

            GNOME looks just as good as KDE

            2) GNOME Users: What do you need a menu editor for anyways?

            Then:

            We have alacarte now... so you can't say we don't have a menu editor anymore!!!

            3) GNOME is so much faster than KDE...

            a) KDE 3.1 acutally ran better on systems with low memory than GNOME did.

            b) GNOME 2.12 was slow as hell...

            c) KDE 3.5 was more responsive than GNOME.

            Response:

            What difference does it make? The average computer now is fast so why build around old hardware? People just need to upgrade their PC..

            4) GNOME Users: KDE3 is crap!! It's too buggy and unstable!!

            then:

            GNOME 2.0 has it's issues but it's a new platform with new technology people. Be patient and they'll get the bugs out. It's a little rough, but you'll definitely see the benefits in the long run.

            (I'm sure you can figure out for yourself why that last one is interesting...)

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            • #36
              I would cry tears of joy if KDE 4.7 was just the same thing as 4.6 but with most bugs fixed and most wanted features implemented. I mean, there are bugs and wishes that actually make a lot of sense that are so old now that it's ridiculous. This is the oldest one I found. One day I'm gonna try every single bug number starting from 10 (already did it up to 10) to see if I can find the oldest open kde bug. Who says KDE isn't fun

              If they could only stop making stuff up and improve what is already there, KDE would become a very good and solid desktop environment. Oh well... "can't complain because it's free", so I'll just keep casting my votes and reporting bugs.

              @RealNC You're still not fed up with all the buggyness? I've recently throwed the towel on my main working machine and switched it to gnome. I'm keeping it in a laptop with Arch so I can keep track. Updating it to 4.6.2 right now. Let's see how that goes.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by devius View Post
                I would cry tears of joy if KDE 4.7 was just the same thing as 4.6 but with most bugs fixed and most wanted features implemented.
                Wait, you want them to release a version is the same except that it has bug fixes and new features? What do you think they've been doing until now, twiddling their thumbs? If they could fix most bugs and implement most features in a single release, don't you think they would have done that already? Introducing new features is going to introduce new bugs, you can't have both.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by devius View Post
                  This is the oldest one I found.
                  So because any one that requests a feature and they choose not to implement it then it is a travesty?

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                  • #39
                    I recently switched to KDE after many years of gnome-ing, and I am really satisfied. I found an option to choose WM. Can you imagine that, KDE lets you choose window manager to use! I don't like kwin, and it is slow and very buggy even without composite (I never tried to use composite in the first place) but I use KDE with openbox. Also I used Gnome before with openbox, but there I had to hack and hope that it will start up with openbox (ofcourse you need to see metacity first, very hard to avoid that) !
                    Now we have a Gnome 3, desktop for noobs, but all previous users, 90% at least were not noobs, and they made it for mobile phones in mind?! They pissed 90% of their users. Screw that, KDE is very configurable, developers cooperate with other DE's, they listen to their users, give them the choice to configure the desktop as they want, and now they even congratulate Gnome for release. I think I picked the right DE for many years to come.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Milan View Post
                      I recently switched to KDE after many years of gnome-ing, and I am really satisfied. I found an option to choose WM. Can you imagine that, KDE lets you choose window manager to use! I don't like kwin, and it is slow and very buggy even without composite (I never tried to use composite in the first place) but I use KDE with openbox. Also I used Gnome before with openbox, but there I had to hack and hope that it will start up with openbox (ofcourse you need to see metacity first, very hard to avoid that) !
                      Now we have a Gnome 3, desktop for noobs, but all previous users, 90% at least were not noobs, and they made it for mobile phones in mind?! They pissed 90% of their users. Screw that, KDE is very configurable, developers cooperate with other DE's, they listen to their users, give them the choice to configure the desktop as they want, and now they even congratulate Gnome for release. I think I picked the right DE for many years to come.
                      I don't know if KDE makes it easier, but I did changed my WM in GNOME, I used it a long time with openbox. And I did it without seeing metacity either, nor "hacking" (just from gconf-editor).
                      I agree in the last part, I don't like much the new face of GNOME.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                        Because they care about their users?
                        And the GPU manufacturers should not care about their paying customers?


                        Originally posted by devius View Post
                        I wish KDE developers would fix KWin's (notice that I said KWin and not radeon driver, as in "fix kwin", not "fix driver") bad performance on radeons.
                        It is a driver issue. KWin does not use some magic NVidia OpenGL. KWin uses OpenGL. Early NVidia drivers (pre v160.xx) also had bugs that caused performance regressions with KWin but obviously NVidia fixed them faster.
                        KWin and Compiz do not work identically. Some effects (eg. shadow) may look the same but the methods to achieve them can be different. I heard Compiz uses more OpenGL 1.x while KWin uses more OpenGL 2.x (though I can't verify whether that's true or not). So one method can be buggy on one driver while another method may work well.

                        That said, the radeon driver that ships with openSUSE 11.4 works fine in conjunction with KWin on my desktop PC at work.
                        Even before the upgrade from 11.3 to 11.4 we used SC 4.6 with KWin 4.6. Under openSUSE 11.3 it was sluggish at times with some effects (esp. the 'fade to gray' logout effect). Now under 11.4 it works very well.The KWin version didn't change 4.6.1 in both cases. The underlying operating system incl. Xorg and Mesa changed to newer versions.
                        Whatever distribution you're using: Switch to a more recent one that has newer Xorg and Mesa packages.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                          BTW, congrats to the GNOME camp, and may their growing pains be less painful than those of KDE 4!

                          There are some nice ideas behind GNOME shell, and new ideas are always good.
                          Now this was more in the spirit of the KDE devs who decided on the release name.

                          BTW, I really don't understand the complaints about old Gnome's lack of configurability. Sure, it didn't expose a gui, but by hacking on a combination of configs, gconf, and xml, you could get it to look pretty much how you wanted (within limitations of gtk, of course). If you look around you'll see gnome desktops that are just unrecognizable. The idea, I would imagine, is that the devs had some choices to make. First, according to Jeff Waugh, they think if you need to add an option you've made a design mistake. Second, there are just so many devs available and Gnome is the main corporate desktop (I believe even SLES defaults to it) so above all else they had to make sure it worked.
                          The first point is laudable but may not be practical, and can certainly lead to problems when they decide to remove options before a design solution appears (IMHO, the problem, unless very serious, then gets back-burnered and a fix may be a long while coming, if ever). The second point is practical and nothing can be done unless they decide to maintain something like Gnome-unstable where they test various ideas over a long period of time, but even that would require more man-power.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by liam View Post
                            BTW, I really don't understand the complaints about old Gnome's lack of configurability. Sure, it didn't expose a gui, but by hacking on a combination of configs, gconf, and xml, you could get it to look pretty much how you wanted (within limitations of gtk, of course).
                            Do you even realize what you just said? Hacking several different configs in several different places, AND you're limited to what you can do because of the toolkit - and you said it so casually like that's just the norm.

                            By those standards any desktop environment or operating system is "highly configurable".

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Joe Sixpack View Post
                              Do you even realize what you just said? Hacking several different configs in several different places, AND you're limited to what you can do because of the toolkit - and you said it so casually like that's just the norm.

                              By those standards any desktop environment or operating system is "highly configurable".
                              If someone wants to consider themselves some kind of 1337 superuser then hacking a few files should be no big deal. If you aren't, then you might want to stick to things that require a gui and stop complaining that gnome isn't providing you with a gui that exposes all 80 000 options for your WM.

                              BTW, any toolkit has limitations that you have to work within, so lets not make a big deal about this.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by liam View Post
                                If someone wants to consider themselves some kind of 1337 superuser then hacking a few files should be no big deal.
                                If they want to consider themselves uber 1337 then maybe they should be on the command line.

                                If you're garden variety user wants things a little different in their GUI environment asking them to learn the intricacies of its internal workings would seem a little heavy, especially if there's alternative GUIs that allow you to easily customise stuff the way you want without having to resort to config files, etc.

                                Originally posted by liam View Post
                                If you aren't, then you might want to stick to things that require a gui and stop complaining that gnome isn't providing you with a gui that exposes all 80 000 options for your WM.
                                But wasn't the point of his post that if you want to customise things a little, and there's alternative GUIs that allow you to do it with out resorting to hacks, maybe it demonstrates one way in which those alternatives are superior.

                                Originally posted by liam View Post
                                BTW, any toolkit has limitations that you have to work within, so lets not make a big deal about this.
                                Again, if the alternative is superior maybe it's worth switching to.


                                This folly of removing all options isn't supportable. At the end of the day whether to provide an option or not will always remain a judgment call. The fact that Gnome provides a minimal set demonstrates that they believe there's a place for them.

                                I agree that thoughtlessly providing an option for anything and everything as a mechanism to avoid making necessary design decisions isn't great and can lead to clutter, but the opposite end of the spectrum also has its downsides and can leave you with a restricted, inflexible and hamstrung software environment.

                                Until Gnome removes absolutely every single option they're doing what the KDE guys are doing. Making judgment calls as to whether this or that benefits the user experience. To argue that there is no place for options and they must be eliminated at all costs and then turn around and provide them would show they don't really believe in that position.

                                So, the fact that Gnome provide some options demonstrates they believe there's a place for them, and this leaves them open to the criticism that they don't provide enough of them. The options for end users is to submit feature requests, switch to other environments, and complain on on-line forums.

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