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  • #31
    Okay, nothing is perfect. And sometimes I get crazy with some thing here, too.
    But then

    a) it was my chioce to use Gentoo instead of some ready-to-use binary distro. And Gentoo is rather complex in some things. You will meet issues that you never see in binary distros since they do it all for you.
    I remember the libpng update... (had to recompile ~80% of my system).

    b) Windows can be a horror, too. If something there goes wrong you don't even have that awesome console where you can do things and look at logs and fix stuff.
    Sometimes it also has a nasty behavior that you just can't stop without reading the whole net up and down to find a tool or a registry hack how to stop Windows doing this or that.

    Some configuration might still be less comfortable and without GUI (personally I prefer to have both solutions, a GUI for comfort and a text/CL UI for handling in scripts or if something is broken in the GUI).

    I do use Linux and Windows (XP) as Desktop systems (Windows mainly for gaming though) and I see that Linux is on par with Windows. Each one has some nasty corners but Linux ist steadily growing and evolving (asides from a certain GPU vendor with V, I and A or XGI. ) I think the main issues are some config things without GUI in Linux, WLAN stuff (not Linux's fault, blame Broadcom and the like), GPU stuff (yes of course it needs time to build up a free full featured OpenGL4.x etc. driver) and... well. Maybe some chips here and there but a lot of things are due to lack of chip manufacturer support.

    I mean, if you really try to look under the hood of Windows, if you really try to fix something there... well, you'd be quite lost in most cases.

    Otherwise it is just a user problem: if you are not used to something new or cling to an old behavior then you might have problems migrating. But even then there are "skins" to simulate Windows optics and behavior e.g. in KDE.

    Oh, and we need native Linux games. Yes. That is the primary downside. If games come to Linux we'll have world domination within a week

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Adarion View Post
      a) it was my chioce to use Gentoo instead of some ready-to-use binary distro. And Gentoo is rather complex in some things. You will meet issues that you never see in binary distros since they do it all for you.
      I remember the libpng update... (had to recompile ~80% of my system).
      That is all fine and well but the vast majority of end users would rather not deal with such headaches. Your choice is not the choice that would be made by almost every end user out there.

      b) Windows can be a horror, too. If something there goes wrong you don't even have that awesome console where you can do things and look at logs and fix stuff.
      Hit F8 at boot.

      Sometimes it also has a nasty behavior that you just can't stop without reading the whole net up and down to find a tool or a registry hack how to stop Windows doing this or that.
      True but the flip side to that is that if you find a fix the procedure to apply it will be somewhat consistent with windows or OS X. In linux the fixes and how to's are usually very distro specific (and changes frequently with released versions of said distro). There are far to many times where a person in linux will have the same issue as another with a different distro and the fix is completely different because of choice of packages used and varying implementations of solutions. Just for example if a person asks "How do I install xyz on linux" you will get many different answers because it all depends on the distro being used.

      I do use Linux and Windows (XP) as Desktop systems (Windows mainly for gaming though) and I see that Linux is on par with Windows.
      I have to disagree there. Linux is still behind on even some of the very basics (see the recent firefox thread for example) and forget about deviating from those basics and expecting to find a refined complete application to do a task that does not involve a task that pretty much everyone uses. Once you start going after uses outside the basic web and document creation selection of refined apps start to get pretty thin.

      Each one has some nasty corners but Linux ist steadily growing and evolving (asides from a certain GPU vendor with V, I and A or XGI. )
      Sure it is steadily growing but so are other OS's. What the real pain is that while linux is growing it is still very far behind in some very basic areas of desktop usage and there isn't a whole lot of effort being put into making those areas any better.

      I think the main issues are some config things without GUI in Linux,
      No argument there, I'm not saying to get rid of the cli options but there should be a GUI ui for pretty much everything as well especially when it comes to configuration.

      WLAN stuff (not Linux's fault, blame Broadcom and the like),
      Ya a big chunk of that was linux's fault but things have been better in that aspect since adopting and developing a "universal" ieee 802.11 stacks and layers.

      GPU stuff (yes of course it needs time to build up a free full featured OpenGL4.x etc. driver) and... well. Maybe some chips here and there but a lot of things are due to lack of chip manufacturer support.
      Patents and licenses hurt a lot there, there are a lot of things a closed source solution can do that the open solutions simply will not be able to do unless those IP holders open things up or licenses start easing their hardline stances.

      I mean, if you really try to look under the hood of Windows, if you really try to fix something there... well, you'd be quite lost in most cases.
      Well believe it or not, Windows has become a fairly robust and stable system. A lot of the "windows is crashy/buggy/etc" rhetoric stems from users that have never forgave for earlier windows releases and still dwell on those old versions.

      Otherwise it is just a user problem: if you are not used to something new or cling to an old behavior then you might have problems migrating. But even then there are "skins" to simulate Windows optics and behavior e.g. in KDE.
      It maybe a "user problem" but it is a lot easier to change code then it is to change a users willingness to get techy and commit to leaning a system inside and out. Plug and play and other technologies were developed because of this realization. There was nothing technically wrong in the days of having to set jumpers and such but the manufacturers realized that expecting the end user to read and understand how to properly configure it was too much to expect that end user to do. So how do they sell more of their product? They made it easier for the end user to install, configure and use their product.

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      • #33
        For all of you whiners out there: if you dislike Linux OS so much, simply STFU and go install Windows or whatever, and then tons of other bullshit software just to make that OS secure and usable.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by pejakm View Post
          For all of you whiners out there: if you dislike Linux OS so much, simply STFU and go install Windows or whatever, and then tons of other bullshit software just to make that OS secure and usable.
          There is a difference in whining and being able to pointing out where things have to be improved. Of course attitudes like yours in this message don't make things any better. Slapping horse blinders on and telling people to STFU doesn't do anyone any good other then reinforcing the saying "ignorance is bliss".

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          • #35
            Originally posted by deanjo View Post
            There is a difference in whining and being able to pointing out where things have to be improved. Of course attitudes like yours in this message don't make things any better. Slapping horse blinders on and telling people to STFU doesn't do anyone any good other then reinforcing the saying "ignorance is bliss".
            Not directed at you, don't know why did you find yourself here. You have some good points (I agree with them) but: pointing out where Linux OS is bad compared to Windows OS also gets you nowhere, as anyone who ever used both of those 2 OSes already know that. Plus, every end user has its own opinion and a wish for something, imagine what would happen if everyone would start to "point out where things have to be improved".

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            • #36
              Originally posted by pejakm View Post
              imagine what would happen if everyone would start to "point out where things have to be improved".
              Ya, it might lead to developers saying "hey we have to address this" finally.

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              • #37
                Let's put it this way, with the many development companies I have worked for over the years, the process for adding features has pretty much been the same. The most requested get priority on development and implementation. The same should apply to almost any software development if you wish that software to become a leader in the field and to have mass adoption.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                  Let's put it this way, with the many development companies I have worked for over the years, the process for adding features has pretty much been the same. The most requested get priority on development and implementation. The same should apply to almost any software development if you wish that software to become a leader in the field and to have mass adoption.
                  I agree, but the Linux software devs already know what do people want the most, but how to work on something without necessary founding, which commercial software has?
                  And, by the way, https://bugs.freedesktop.org/ is a good place to start when contacting developers, not this empty forum talks.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by pejakm View Post
                    I agree, but the Linux software devs already know what do people want the most, but how to work on something without necessary founding, which commercial software has?
                    The thing is that most of the linux development is done by funded devs (at least in key subsystems). My company for example uses a large chunk of the income generated from our software towards the open source development. That money comes from adding features that are most requested to make it appeal a larger audience.

                    And, by the way, https://bugs.freedesktop.org/ is a good place to start when contacting developers, not this empty forum talks.
                    I disagree, a lot of the key devs are present in these forums. The best part posting here is that they cannot slap a "will not fix" status here.

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                    • #40
                      In my opinion, he is conflating issues here. Sure Ubuntu apparently doesn't provide an easy way for experts to fix issues they've caused. But the average user? They won't be messing with xorg.conf at all. So, in reality, this particular issue is a complete non-issue for the Free Software Desktop making it.

                      Also, seriously, I've only dabbled in making an xorg.conf and even I know that it goes Option "OptionInQuotes" "setting". He really has no one to blame but himself here, even if Ubuntu did make it hard for him to fix it.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by SirT View Post
                        In my opinion, he is conflating issues here. Sure Ubuntu apparently doesn't provide an easy way for experts to fix issues they've caused. But the average user? They won't be messing with xorg.conf at all. So, in reality, this particular issue is a complete non-issue for the Free Software Desktop making it.

                        Also, seriously, I've only dabbled in making an xorg.conf and even I know that it goes Option "OptionInQuotes" "setting". He really has no one to blame but himself here, even if Ubuntu did make it hard for him to fix it.
                        I think his issue was more of: if something does go wrong (and it almost certainly will for some average users) that there wasn't any easy method of recovery, and there he does have a point.

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                        • #42
                          For me, Linux was ready for the desktop 10 years ago.

                          For my girlfriend, it was last year. She wouldn't go back to anything else now.

                          With each person, it's different. I'd say that we're on a really good way. It will probably never be ready for EVERYBODY and everybody's requirements, but quite frankly speaking, I don't give a flying crap

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                          • #43
                            Probably my longest comment ever

                            Originally posted by mendieta View Post
                            Despite all that, it looks like linux won'r replace windows massively, not out of lack of anything, but really because people want what they know. Whatever.
                            As much as I love GNU/Linux, I still have to admit that there are some real deficiencies that take a little too long to be addressed to say at least.

                            Originally posted by Tudhalyas View Post
                            I think we're missing the point here. In order to become a good desktop operating system, Linux needs 2 things:
                            1. A stable API for its kernel and its main subsystems, namely the graphics and audio stack. If you want people outside the open source movement to support Linux, you'll have to give them stable APIs so they can write their modules without the worry that they won't work with the next release of the package. This would also ensures some degree of backward compatibility towards old, non-open binaries that are no more supported by the developers. Yes, we would all like 100% free software on our machines, but this is not a perfect world.
                            Never gonna happen - see what Linus and Greg Kroah-Hartman have to say about this and as far as I'm concerned, they're perfectly right. You may not agree with them and dislike their opinion all you want but that's pretty much all you can do about it besides forking Linux and seeing how it works out for yourself. Good luck with that - perhaps the good blobbers whose interests you're trying to defend can help you out by willingly sharing some of the pain but I really doubt that.

                            Originally posted by Tudhalyas View Post
                            1. One (and only one) thing for every critical task of the OS, so that people can find a similar environment on any distro they may try: one graphical server, one audio framework, one package management system, one GUI toolkit, etc. I know, Linux should be all about users' choice, but when it comes to critical parts of the OS we shouldn't have the luxury of choosing which parts fits us best. With an uniform system framework across distros, people (users and developers alike) would get more attracted to Linux, IMHO.
                            I agree that much more investment in any efforts to polish and standardize these areas would almost certainly help us with the serious lack of manpower we're facing right now. But again: we absolutely have to avoid tying our hands too much with backwards compatibility or we end up creating yet another pile of inconsistent junk held together only by a crapload of duct tape. At that point, I really don't care if it's free (as in freedom) or not.

                            Originally posted by Tudhalyas View Post
                            If we can achieve these two goals, then Linux on the desktop will finally emerge from its niche.
                            All I'm trying to say is that I think it's much better to take all the time we need to make things right instead of rushing right into the hellmouth even if that means not emerging from the niche any time soon.

                            Originally posted by clem11388 View Post
                            This is very true, I have been using Linux as my main OS for about 1 year now, but only out of necessity because windows was wigging out on me on both my desktop and laptop. Linux (Ubuntu specifically) has been treating me very well so far.
                            Same here, just a little longer (since Dapper Drake or so).

                            Originally posted by clem11388 View Post
                            I have noticed that in the past 2 to 3 years Linux has become MUCH bigger than it used to be. This charge being led mostly by Ubuntu and its various derivative distributions that have branched off of it. I CAN'T WAIT to see where things go in the next 2, 3, 4 or 5 years. Linux won't be the top dog in that time. But with out any doubt some BIG things will be happening, especially in the standardization for lots of aspects of Linux usage.
                            Yeah. I even used to install new versions on my boxes with every release but now I tend to be a little more conservative, especially with my clients.

                            Originally posted by DoDoENT View Post
                            So, Linux fails to make simple things simple, but succeeds in making complicated things simple, and that's why we like it.

                            On the other hand, Windows succeeds in making simple things simple and complicated things even more complicated .
                            Yeah, something like that. But I still think it's a little more complicated than that.

                            Originally posted by another_sam View Post
                            Two deadly scenarios have to be addressed for Linux to reach masses:
                            1. Updating a 10.04 installed through Wubi causes "error: no such device" + "grub rescue". The average user commits suicide for less than this.
                            2. Configuring xorg.conf is like defusing a bomb. You cut the wrong wBOOMMM!!
                            Man, you're just cracking me up. So true.

                            Originally posted by another_sam View Post
                            I think at least 10% of Windows users could use Ubuntu nowadays, and that they would benefit greatly from its greater speed, much faster maintenance, much greater security, and quite easier use (for not bomb-defusing cases, I mean).

                            The reason for the current 1% instead of 10% is that Ubuntu was not pre-installed on their machines.

                            An additional 5% would be possible with more papercut fixing (progressing at good pace) and the damn Photoshop working seamlessly on wine (progressing at good pace also).
                            That's exactly what I think and right now there are quite a few years of real-world experience backing that up. I was installing Ubuntu on one of my client's laptop just yesterday. He was forced to buy a new one because someone stolen the one he had right from the trunk of his car. The new machine came with "7 sins" (not to mention the crapload of trial versions of some worthless junk nobody ever asked for) because of corrupt vendors' stupid bundling practices. There was no way to connect that piece of crap to the company network because of what seems to be decades old bug now simply being obscured. He'll be using Ubuntu for daily work (and pretty much everything else he's doing) and the only reason why he still keeps Winblow$ around is because he might need to run some WinCrap here and there so ditching that piece of crap completely doesn't make much sense (although confining it to a virtual machine is a whole different story and the only reason why it's not done yet is a lack of time).

                            Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                            I can understand if someone gets angry when something does not work like it should or like someone think it should work.
                            I understand when someone gets pissed off because stuff doesn't work the way it should, but I just can't stand it when poor artist is blaming his tools. It just plain sucks when someone is blaming something that he obviously isn't even willing to learn using properly. Unfortunately as a designer you have to assume just that.

                            Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                            Then it's always this linux has this and this small issue, but windows is perfect (at least the much problems with it get not quoted).
                            It's probably better to get used to it because I seriously doubt that attitude is gonna change anytime soon.

                            Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                            So software is never perfect it has always bugs in it. At least if it gets bigger then 100.000 lines.
                            That's right. You can screw up even "Hello, world!" if you don't concentrate enough on what you're doing. Now imagine you have to keep all those bugs and bad design decisions around indefinitely for the sake of backwards compatibility and trying to improve the thing at the same time.

                            Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                            I think linux is today on the desktop. Not in future, today. That not 99% of the users use it is no point because most of the people who used both systems would agree that MAC OS X is the better than windows but has also not that big market share.
                            History clearly shows us that even technologically superior solution doesn't have to win. That's how M$ became the monster it is today in the first place. Who knows how things turned out if OS/2 didn't flop.

                            Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                            Windows works on most computers, and it is installed on most computers you can buy and most people used it for several years. Especially the last point is the point why they dont will change if windows will do their job in nearly enough as they want it.
                            Yeah. That's how good old FUD combined with serious cash used for all sorts of dirty business practices and quite a few valid technical reasons works.

                            Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                            I know its written to another context but it fits the problem here too:

                            "and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

                            * United States Declaration of Independence
                            "Different context" doesn't necessarily mean "irrelevant".

                            Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                            Btw. that's also the point why we have most of the other important problems on the earth.
                            That's words of true wisdom right here!

                            Originally posted by pejakm View Post
                            For all of you whiners out there: if you dislike Linux OS so much, simply STFU and go install Windows or whatever, and then tons of other bullshit software just to make that OS secure and usable.
                            I really don't think any OS can be made secure any other way than by constantly evolving it in order to be more and more secure. That's because even if you completely ignore that it's impossible to come up with a 100% reliable malware-detection algorithm, then by the time the alarm goes off, it's already too late.

                            Anyway - the bottom line is I think it always comes down to choosing whatever set of annoyances and inconveniences you can handle the best.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by »John« View Post
                              It just plain sucks when someone is blaming something that he obviously isn't even willing to learn using properly.
                              So true! I have a bunch of friends negatively criticizing Linux OS just because they used to work with Windows. After I show them it ain't such a big problem, and that (usually simple and basic) functions they need on a system are practically the same or even easier on Linux, I hear ovations and approving. But as soon as a simple problem occurs (ie. they can't find a movie player shortcut in START menu) the same outcry happens again. I had installed Arch Linux on my cousin's laptop a few years ago. He did not had any touch with computers before at all, so the Arch Linux I've installed was his first contact with an operative system at all. And guess what? He has never had any problems getting used to Linux OS. Also he didn't have any problems with it.

                              Anyway - the bottom line is I think it always comes down to choosing whatever set of annoyances and inconveniences you can handle the best.
                              Agreed 1000%!
                              Last edited by pejakm; 01-16-2011, 02:22 PM. Reason: typo

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                              • #45
                                With good driver support binary blob or not...

                                ...linux desktops should have gained %10 usage by 2010, and many popular proprietary applications-games should have been ported to linux. The answer why companies don't port their applications is because they don't want to mess with customers asking for help solving a problem that has nothing to do with their software but is indeed caused by a still buggy ATI driver, an unsupported audio interface-soundcard etc. This is the major reason of linux desktop's setback and companies like AMD, creative are to blame. Praising AMD for just releasing specs to their hardware and leaving all the daunting work to opensource developers won't solve anything... but not purchasing their hardware and encouraging people to do the same will.

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