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KDE's Plasma To Be Reworked, Use More OpenGL

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  • #31
    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
    Based on the same logic, I am hereby predicting that every single post you write from now to eternity will be filled with nothing but FUD.
    Nice one. But in case you haven't noticed this is about KDE not me. You know play the ball not the man

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    • #32
      Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
      Based on the same logic, I am hereby predicting that every single post you write from now to eternity will be filled with nothing but FUD.
      Come come, it's logical to expect the same thing based on someone's track record. It in no way means it will be that way of course, so you are really both right.

      All I know about KDE is it has failed for me by being too cluttered with stuff I don't want and not enough stuff I do want. Those pieces that I do want that Gnome doesn't have make me jealous, but I would honestly have to play around with it again to remember what I was I was jealous about because I haven't really needed whatever it was I thought I was missing. I've always managed to find some program to give me what I want.

      Of course, once you learn some things that you end up loving you ask yourself, "How could I have ever lived without this?!?!" So I'm either mostly satisfied with Gnome, or I just don't know what I'm missing.

      Sometime I'll get around to giving 4.5 a go though to see if anything magical happens to my opinion of the, for me at least, confusing choices they have made for their DE. Like the "lets reduce the size of the desktop where you can put files and folders down to a small window, and make it so you can't put them anywhere else on the desktop" choice for instance. Seriously, what the hell. All you've done is turned it from a big background file manager into a small background file manager. Yay.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Yfrwlf View Post
        Come come, it's logical to expect the same thing based on someone's track record. It in no way means it will be that way of course, so you are really both right.
        My point was that moonraf was cherry-picking only a few examples that stood out in his mind. KDE devs make hundreds of changes all the time, and no one ever complains about them. It's just 1 or 2 high profile ones that do cause problems, and then people start throwing wild accusations around like "every single change they ever make will screw stuff up".

        That's nonsense.

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        • #34
          I have only two feature requests:

          1) Make ist stable.
          At my university in the pool there is now Archlinux installed. Therefore I tried KDE again. I was able to use it exactly three seconds until the whole Desktop froze completely. I went to the console and killed plasma and changed back to the desktop. There was a window "Starting Akonadi Server" sitting there for some minutes (!) and then the screen was simplay black...

          2) Make it a LITTLE BIT more performant. I have 1 gb Ram at the moment. That ought to be enaugh for your Desktop, shouldn't it?
          In fact it is enaugh for KDE. But just try to use some programs and it will fuck your Ram up. When I had 1 gb Ram and 512 mb swap (!) used I seriously had enaugh.

          Yes, this is anecdotic, but every time I try KDE I run into the same trouble of it being extremely laggy (context menus taking up to two seconds to open, clicking on buttons just feels slow), buggy rendering (the background picture partly overlays konsole windows or xchat WTF), ressource-intensive and somehow plasma keeps on segfaulting.
          Yes, Amarok... I tried amarok2 and it was kind of pretty, but it never played more than one song for me, there was just no sound after the first finished. I guess, phonon kind of sucks with gstreamer... But then put a message in there "Warning, don't use phonon with gstreamer, if possible". I wonder if amarok2 still keeps segfaulting on closing. Maybe I should try it again.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by ChrisXY View Post
            I have only two feature requests:

            1) Make ist stable.
            At my university in the pool there is now Archlinux installed. Therefore I tried KDE again. I was able to use it exactly three seconds until the whole Desktop froze completely. I went to the console and killed plasma and changed back to the desktop. There was a window "Starting Akonadi Server" sitting there for some minutes (!) and then the screen was simplay black...
            You've got no luck or there's something seriously messed up. What graphic drivers are there?

            2) Make it a LITTLE BIT more performant. I have 1 gb Ram at the moment. That ought to be enaugh for your Desktop, shouldn't it?
            In fact it is enaugh for KDE. But just try to use some programs and it will fuck your Ram up. When I had 1 gb Ram and 512 mb swap (!) used I seriously had enaugh.
            It doesn't usually use more then 600MB on my box on 64bit platform.

            Yes, this is anecdotic, but every time I try KDE I run into the same trouble of it being extremely laggy (context menus taking up to two seconds to open, clicking on buttons just feels slow), buggy rendering (the background picture partly overlays konsole windows or xchat WTF), ressource-intensive and somehow plasma keeps on segfaulting.
            What drivers?

            Yes, Amarok... I tried amarok2 and it was kind of pretty, but it never played more than one song for me, there was just no sound after the first finished. I guess, phonon kind of sucks with gstreamer... But then put a message in there "Warning, don't use phonon with gstreamer, if possible". I wonder if amarok2 still keeps segfaulting on closing. Maybe I should try it again.
            Yes, Amarok which I have no single problem with it. It's gstreamer which sucks with Phonon. ;> Using KDE with Phonon you're free to use VLC, XINE and Gstreamer, but gstreamer sucks with it. Nope, Amarok doesn't segfault on exit. You had seriously messed up system I guess, the same as me, but when I was running the latest 'stable' Gnome release on Fedora.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by marek View Post
              Almost always both. Both KDE and driver developers should talk to each other and resolve any issues together, especially when KDE people launch a new product the driver devs don't know about or don't test (they are usually more busy with making games work and fast).
              I've got the same feeling. On the other side it seems they have better communication with Gnome people, but maybe just Gnome devs made the first step or it's due to some Red Hat priorities. While Gallium is starting kicking ass and radeon drivers are maturing KWin devs should take a look more closely on open source graphic stack and thus make KDE run flawlessly out of the box on open source drivers. I hope this will happen.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Yfrwlf View Post
                Sometime I'll get around to giving 4.5 a go though to see if anything magical happens to my opinion of the, for me at least, confusing choices they have made for their DE.
                I don't think that there's anything magical. It's just very smooth and feels very modern, and does everything I need it to.

                Like the "lets reduce the size of the desktop where you can put files and folders down to a small window, and make it so you can't put them anywhere else on the desktop" choice for instance. Seriously, what the hell. All you've done is turned it from a big background file manager into a small background file manager. Yay.
                You know that you can toggle this with a single click, right?

                The reason is moving away from the Windows-mode of having the desktop as a large warehouse of temporary files towards a more traditional Unix or NeXT desktop.

                MacOSX went in the other direction, really, seeing as how it was developed on NeXT principles after Apple bought them.

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                • #38
                  @ChrisXY

                  Provide your bug reports, please. It will be great opportunity to check what, so strange was happening on mentioned systems, because you're not just putting random crap, are you?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                    I've got the same feeling. On the other side it seems they have better communication with Gnome people, but maybe just Gnome devs made the first step or it's due to some Red Hat priorities. While Gallium is starting kicking ass and radeon drivers are maturing KWin devs should take a look more closely on open source graphic stack and thus make KDE run flawlessly out of the box on open source drivers. I hope this will happen.
                    I agree that the KDE guys blundered with the KWin 4.5.

                    At the same time, don't forget that RedHat employees do a lot of the open driver work, and they also employ many of the GNOME hackers. They don't employ any KDE people. Of course the communication is better with the former.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                      You know that you can toggle this with a single click, right?
                      If someone has problems with such trivial thing then he should stay as far from Gnome 3 as possible.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by aaaantoine View Post
                        Much like how I can no longer turn on compositing without causing my desktop to flicker whenever I open the Application Launcher. As of 4.5.

                        In fact it's a general trend I've faced in the progress of open source software: 3 steps forward (bug fixes and new features), 2 steps back (bad, sometimes critical regressions).
                        http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blo...orkspaces-4-5/

                        When I see these problems I think: "it looks like we are the first one to actually use the drivers". And then I start to think about it and realize: yes we are. Compiz does not yet use GLSL (Compizís Blur effect is written in GPU assembler. KWin blur also has an assembler part which is a fallback in case the driver does not claim support for GLSL), so we are probably the first ones to use these driver capabilities in a real world application. Now why are we using something that new? Because it is quite old: this is OpenGL 2 we are speaking about, a standard specified in 2004! Btw. Microsoft made use of blur by default when they introduced Vista, that was in 2006. So we are talking about functionality specified since six years and used by default by our competition for four years. Oh and please note: the same hardware runs fine in Vista or Windows 7 Ė at least thatís what we can see from the bug reports.
                        As it's been stated in a few other places: most of the issues stem from graphic drivers claiming functionality that they don't currently support. Like anything else in software, the first programs that utilize features will always expose bugs.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                          I agree that the KDE guys blundered with the KWin 4.5.
                          Developers make bugs, no surprise, stuff like that happens, it's inevitable, but fixable. Their biggest mistake was they decided to be childish and put the blame on somebody else.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Joe Sixpack View Post
                            As it's been stated in a few other places: most of the issues stem from graphic drivers claiming functionality that they don't currently support.
                            That's non-sense. We've been through this many times on this board before. No so-called "GL2 hardware" supports GL2 except for NV40, and both ATI and NVIDIA have given a list of features you should not use with their GL2 drivers. Every GL2 game developer had to follow that. Also the issue the blogpost is talking about is not about faking features, it was just a bug in Mesa they did not want to report. How brave.

                            That blogpost is simply full of demagogism.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by marek View Post
                              That's non-sense. We've been through this many times on this board before. No so-called "GL2 hardware" supports GL2 except for NV40, and both ATI and NVIDIA have given a list of features you should not use with their GL2 drivers. Every GL2 game developer had to follow that. Also the issue the blogpost is talking about is not about faking features, it was just a bug in Mesa they did not want to report. How brave.

                              That blogpost is simply full of demagogism.
                              That's interesting, because Marco Martin claims the exact opposite:

                              ...we use all the best the system has to offer, we report problems in the components that we use, their developers are aware of that.
                              if the problem is still there after so many years is an unfortunate thing, it will eventually be fixed but we simply canít stagnate because parts of the stack canít keep up
                              I was just simply stating the accusation - and it's an accusation I've read on a number of forums and blogs. Even if they didn't want to report bugs like he claimed they do, how does that change anything? The accusation was that bugs in graphic drivers are causing problems with Kwin. Doesn't your admission prove that?

                              Also, could you point me to the list of features ATI and Nvidia said not to use with their GL2 drivers? (Just for my own curiosity...)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The general consensus seems to be that the non-optional portion of the GL ES 2.0 subset seems to be a good target, in the sense that it offers a better match to real-world hardware than the GL 2.0 spec.

                                The problem is that the GL 2.0 spec came out *after* the hardware that *almost* supports it was designed, so there's a lot of "almost but not quite" support in the 2005-ishhardware.

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