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Mono 2.8 Is Out With C# 4.0, Better Performance

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  • #61
    Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
    Mono is an order of magnitude faster than Python. If Python is too slow for something this doesn't mean that it won't run acceptably on Mono (through e.g. IronPython).
    If something doesn't run fast enough in well written Python then the equivalent Mono app may run a little more acceptably, but by consuming almost all system resources doing so. Again, they're both best suited for the front-end than writing full applications.

    Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
    Java is fine for the enterprise but I've never *ever* seen anyone embed or use Java in a scripting environment.
    Ever hear of Apache Velocity? Or how about JSP? I've never seen Mono (or .NET for that matter) used to build applications on the same scale that you see Java. Ever.

    Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
    Or a gaming console. Mono is gaining significant traction on these areas.
    How are gaming consoles relevant? While we're on that off topic I might as well note I've never seen .NET in a Blu-Ray player.

    .NET just isn't used for full application development. Period. Java is, and is optimized as such. Java has better development tools, documentation, a larger community and open spec. And comeon- if you're going to bring up Oracle_VS_Google then look at -why- they're suing Google over Java first. You don't see them suing anyone over OpenJDK, do you?

    Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
    Also, I admit it. I'm paid to inflitrate and seed heretic ideas on Linux websites.
    Noone pointed out you (you don't matter). The astroturfing is happening on a much larger scale, performed by organizations advocating the stack for reasons impossible to understand, because there are no benefits in the context they're trying to use them in.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by yotambien View Post
      Well, at least, we do know about the existence of the FAT patent, don't we?
      I feel very comfortable about the FAT patent. Pulling that one would kill them in Europe which 1) doesn't honour (pure) software patents and 2) has fined them,what, a trillion dollars for monopolist practices. Imagine if they attempt to pull a software patent which hampers interoperability.

      MS has many very powerful enemies. They are not stupid and will not try to pull a SCO-like suicide mission like that. They will FUD like usual, and let internet trolls and bought journalists confuse the public and scare them out of Linux.

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      • #63
        And LOL at Blackstar who disses C++ because of segfaults, but somehow thinks that C programs do not segfault. That's the best post on phoronix yet

        You rock, man!

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        • #64
          You did indirectly say C sucked, BlackStar, because C can also segfault and allows less strict rules than C++.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by jacob View Post
            Qt is a great framework but uses its own, nonstandard version of C++, does not offer transparent language interoperability like Mono does, suffers from C++'s memory (mis)management, lack of true dynamic introspection and hard to overcome performance bottlenecks
            Does mono use standard version of C++ or C? I don't care about interoperability, Qt proven to be much slimmer and faster compared to mono. I'm judging on applications that I was using.

            , and is only GPL or PROPRIETARY (I believe the GPL is a great license, BTW, but obviously developers want to be able to chose other licenses if they see fit). Plus, the advantage of developing end-user apps in VM-based languages like Mono or Java is that they make it very easy for users to download and install plug-ins and extensions (no matter which OS and CPU you use, just drop a package file in the extensions folders and voila). In a natively compiled environment like Qt/C++, where extensions essentially must be .so files, it's next to impossible to make that even remotely user friendly.
            It's also LGPL afaik, so there shouldn't be any problems. If Qt licenses doesn't allow bsd developers to do what they want I simply don't care. I also don't like VM-based languages like Java and Mono. I'm not saying people shouldn't use such languages of course, but making desktop applications using VM-based languages isn't the best practice in my opinion.

            How do you define "faster" for a DESKTOP NOTES utility? By the number of nano-seconds it takes to create a new note? BTW I said there are many Mono-based apps that are good, not just tomboy.
            I'm talking just about subjective feeling. I can compare Mono apps to Qt, Vala apps. In example, Shotwell which is written in vala starts immediately in Ubuntu 10.04 while F-spot doesn't start as fast. Banshee performance suffers when there's a large collection and tomboy consumes more memory then Gnote. I know it's hard to measure a real memory usage under Linux, but probably everyone considers mono, java applications use more memory then C, C++ applications.

            Well... maybe because I find Gnome nicer to use? Last time I checked, Gnote didn't support the Ubuntu indicator or U1 synchronisation. Does it now?
            I guess nobody complained about such things till mono and tomboy appeared. Then, something like this started to matter from some reason.

            The FUD is yours. If I may suggest, check your facts first. The Oracle lawsuit is not about violating "some term" but specifically about *patents* that cover *core*, i.e. impossible to work-around J2ME technologies (security domains for class loading and other things).
            The FUD is this what you and MS were claiming about kernel. If there are so many patented technologies in the Linux why didn't MS sued companies which use it? I guess they fear, because MS probably violates many patents. Btw. aren't Linux users, companies under some protection? This doesn't cover mono afaik.

            No idea. Presumably thousands.
            Mainly Novell customers I guess, but Novell has a deal with MS, so its customers pay some tax to Microsoft, aren't they?

            No, Linux is not here to compete with Microsoft or to serve them. Linux is here to be the best development platform with the broadest choice of first-class development tools. Mono is one of them, so are Qt and Java. Developers have many reasons to like it for certain types of projects.
            At this point Linux has to compete being the best development platform, but till situation with mono is not completely clear then there's a risk some people wants Linux to be just a platform which propagates Microsoft technology (and it's worth to note this technology is quite obsolete).

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            • #66
              I seriously doubt BlackStar is some troll or astroturfer, I see him as a guy who genuinely loves c#. Problem is with things we love is that often our objectivity goes out the window (I am that way with the Haiku OS). I think perhaps he should cut down on the 'love' because there's a thin line between coming across as a genuine fan and instead appear as a annoying sleazy salesman, particularly in a place like this were it would seem pracically noone is interested in buying the 'c# way of life'.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                And LOL at Blackstar who disses C++ because of segfaults, but somehow thinks that C programs do not segfault. That's the best post on phoronix yet

                You rock, man!
                I love it when people put things into my mouth. Please find a quote where I said this or kindly shut the fuck up.



                I seriously doubt BlackStar is some troll or astroturfer, I see him as a guy who genuinely loves c#. Problem is with things we love is that often our objectivity goes out the window (I am that way with the Haiku OS). I think perhaps he should cut down on the 'love' because there's a thin line between coming across as a genuine fan and instead appear as a annoying sleazy salesman, particularly in a place like this were it would seem pracically noone is interested in buying the 'c# way of life'.
                Or maybe I *am* a sleazy, self-appointed salesman who tries to increase Phoronix pageviews and (bl-)ad money.

                Besides, nothing's like arguing over inconsequential things such as choice of DE or programming languages, while waiting for a hackintosh to install. (Oh, the horror!)

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
                  I love it when people put things into my mouth. Please find a quote where I said this or kindly shut the fuck up.
                  Oh I will!

                  When you talk, it's SO much funnier!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
                    Besides, nothing's like arguing over inconsequential things such as choice of DE or programming languages, while waiting for a hackintosh to install. (Oh, the horror!)

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                      'Supposedly' in this case means 'heard it from Microsoft', and they have backed up their claims with absolutely nothing. Which makes these claims about as beliveable as the (partly Microsoft funded) SCO FUD debacle. Mono on the other hand is undoubtably patented microsoft tech.
                      Yes, I agree that this Microsoft's claim is FUD, but my point was that the anti-Mono stance is the same type of FUD. It is virtually certain that the Linux kernel (just like any other program, probably including helloworld.c) *does* infringe on some bogus Microsoft patents and is no safer from (theoretically) being sued over. Regarding Mono, once again, what matters to Linux developers is the core runtime platform which IS exempt from the patent FUD, plus frameworks that are not related to Microsoft at all. The fact that ASP.NET is patent-laden is probably of no interest at all because no Linux developer is probably going to use it.

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                      • #71
                        I hate Mono for the same reasons I hate java. It's sloooow.
                        But nowadays all the Informatics-students love those. I tell you all: there's brewing a horde of programmers which are more interested in easy good looking code than in speed and functionality.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                          Exactly. We don't need it at all. Mono apps offer no single real advantage over other Linux apps. Let's take Gnote which is consuming less memory, starts faster and doesn't depend on 50MB or so mono crap. The same about Shotwell compared to f-spot. F-spot just sucks while Shotwell is very fast.
                          I don't understand why people must program in C, why not use Java instead?

                          It's for the languages and managed code. Managed code is inherently more reliable (In the sense that they have larger uptimes and don't necessarily exit on exception).

                          Mono is like OpenJDK lite. It's a easy programming language running managed but it's also lighter than Java. That's why people use it. If I could be assed to learn C# I would.

                          When I run banshee it takes up much closer to 18MB of ram btw, and runs significantly better than anything else.

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                          • #73
                            C# is an awesome language, and .NET provides a ton of useful libraries.

                            That said, I'd never use Mono over Qt. The issue is a little murkier on GNOME, but I think for any project that wants to be accepted by the community that going with Mono would be a mistake in the long run. For a quick app for personal use Mono probably makes sense.

                            On Windows, though, .NET rules. Someone earlier said they'd rather use the win32 api over .net, and that is INSANE.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by NoEffex View Post
                              It's for the languages and managed code. Managed code is inherently more reliable (In the sense that they have larger uptimes and don't necessarily exit on exception).
                              Exceptions are one of the worst things about Java; I've regularly seen Java programs crash when running for long periods because a rare exception was raised that someone didn't check for and that killed the software, or because someone did catch the exception and didn't do anything useful with it because that code had never been tested. And I can't see how anyone who's ever used Eclipse could believe that Java is inherently reliable.

                              Java is faster to develop than C++, is more portable in binary form and has a bunch of useful features due to the runtime linking (e.g. being able to determine which methods are available on a random class). And with the average user on a 2+GHz dual or quad core, the performance loss from running in a VM isn't important in most cases.

                              But you're likely to spend just as much time making it reliable as you would a competently-written C++ program; in particular, aside from random Exception crashes the use of garbage collection and lack of destructors is an open invitation to memory leaks as people forget to remove their objects from every list/map/set which points to when they're deleted.

                              I don't know how .Net compares, but I doubt it's any better.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by movieman View Post
                                But you're likely to spend just as much time making it reliable as you would a competently-written C++ program; in particular, aside from random Exception crashes the use of garbage collection and lack of destructors is an open invitation to memory leaks as people forget to remove their objects from every list/map/set which points to when they're deleted.

                                I don't know how .Net compares, but I doubt it's any better.
                                .NET is much better. It has destructors, and more commonly uses the IDispose interface with the 'using' keyword to handle those situations.

                                You can even use unmanaged code in sections if you really want to.

                                It also allows you to easily catch all generic exceptions, and to hook in a global exception handler to catch anything not handled locally.

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