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X Input 2 Support Goes Into GTK+ 3.0

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  • #16
    IMHO, this is completely fine. Michael is more interested in GNOME, it's probably what he uses, so he follows the news with more interest. Just like he's more interested in ATi news, so we get far more stories about that than other graphics drivers. I don't think that Phoronix claims to be the most impartial news source on the web, so that's OK, though more balanced news would be a welcome change from my pov.

    Although I have been a KDE user since 1.1 days, and consider it the only serious desktop on Unix systems today, with no real competitors, I can accept that GTK is the most important single toolkit in the Linux ecosystem, both historically and in current usage. It has evolved into a very good toolkit which is very popular for applications developers. IMHO, Qt has technical advantages, and this is what I use personally for my software, but GTK is very important anyway, and preferred by many people, a large group being C programmers who dislike C++.

    The whole issue of KDE vs. GNOME is a historical political battle. KDE team made a questionable (and potentially dangerous) decision in the early days, which gave the FSF and Debian a heart attack, and the kneejerk reaction remained long after the issue was resolved and KDE became more free than the alternatives. The battle has been fueled by inertia, not technical or legal issues, ever since then.

    In terms of actual quality, It was never even close.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by V!NCENT View Post
      Mandriva is pretty much dead ATM. Financial problems (read /.).

      Kubuntu, while flawed, isn't massive? Strange...

      BTW Fedora has KDE iso's, so Gnome isn't default at all... I don't know where you got that from? Maybe because computer-iliterate users see the fedora screens by default as Gnome is way more simple to understand...
      Mandriva, while having financial problems, was included because it's not 'based' on any other Distribution, which is why I also listed Slackware.

      This is also the reason I did not include Kubuntu in my list. While it may have a lot of users, it is an offshoot of Ubuntu, hence not one of the major players. I didn't count this in as "I have more users than you do!"

      Fedora's default is Gnome, all of the Redhat technologies are put up as Gnome technologies first, and I don't think there are any of the main developers working on KDE that work for Redhat.

      Though I do appreciate Fedora because unlike Ubuntu / Kubuntu, they stick with closer to upstream when it comes to the layout of both KDE and Gnome (much like Debian does as well)

      No one pointed out that OpenSuSE also has Gnome install disks. But that's because it's not considered default as well.

      leech

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      • #18
        Originally posted by energyman View Post
        and then you remember: Ximian assholes at Novell tried to kill KDE. Redhat has a strong 'not invented here' syndrome. And debian is betraying their own rules with the continued use of gnome. In fact, the FSF is betraying their own goals, if they use/recommend gnome.
        Now I recall Ximian being assholes, but I don't recall them specifically trying to kill KDE except for making Gnome the default of the Enterprise desktop / server version.

        Redhat, as much as I dislike RPM itself, has done a great service to Linux, both in devoting programmers to the kernel development and creating things like network-manager, and overall creating most of the technologies that make Linux more desktop worthy, even though they said for a long time that it'd never happen....

        I'm confused about Debian betraying their own goals with gnome... I think you're smoking some crack there. KDE/Qt used to have the problem of not being GPL/LGPL, but that has been more or less remedied. The only thing I can think you'd be referring to is Mono support, and the Gnome package in Debian Squeeze depends on either Tomboy (depending on mono) or gnote, which doesn't depend on mono. Not sure which is installed by default at this point.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
          IMHO, this is completely fine. Michael is more interested in GNOME, it's probably what he uses, so he follows the news with more interest. Just like he's more interested in ATi news, so we get far more stories about that than other graphics drivers. I don't think that Phoronix claims to be the most impartial news source on the web, so that's OK, though more balanced news would be a welcome change from my pov.

          Although I have been a KDE user since 1.1 days, and consider it the only serious desktop on Unix systems today, with no real competitors, I can accept that GTK is the most important single toolkit in the Linux ecosystem, both historically and in current usage. It has evolved into a very good toolkit which is very popular for applications developers. IMHO, Qt has technical advantages, and this is what I use personally for my software, but GTK is very important anyway, and preferred by many people, a large group being C programmers who dislike C++.

          The whole issue of KDE vs. GNOME is a historical political battle. KDE team made a questionable (and potentially dangerous) decision in the early days, which gave the FSF and Debian a heart attack, and the kneejerk reaction remained long after the issue was resolved and KDE became more free than the alternatives. The battle has been fueled by inertia, not technical or legal issues, ever since then.

          In terms of actual quality, It was never even close.
          I know about the whole political backdrop of the KDE vs. Gnome. The main reason I prefer Gnome over KDE is because with every single version that I have used (I have tested everything from just before 1.0 to 4.3 (or 4.4, can't recall right now if I tried the newest yet..) and it always irritates me in one form or another. Mostly it reminds me far too much of the way Windows works, and I hate that. I first started using Linux because I saw screenshots of Enlightenment DR13. It completely floored me.

          Now the question is, after bringing that up, and to move back more on topic. Is Xinput 2 going to be added to the EFL? That would be SO sweet!

          leech

          Comment


          • #20
            KDE/Qt used to have the problem of not being GPL/LGPL, but that has been more or less remedied.
            What do you mean by "less"?

            KDE has always been LGPL (though parts use other licenses like GPL or BSD).

            Qt is QPL and GPL and LGPL. And additionally bound by a contract which states that should Trolltech (or whoever succeeds them) ever stop releasing a FLOSS version, the last released version becomes BSD licensed.

            How can you possibly get more resolved than that?

            His point was that GNOME was founded with the specific and stated goal of killing KDE because Qt was not free (Ximian only followed the project spirit). Once Qt was GPL'ed, they switched their goal to killing KDE because it is TOO free. The argument became that you should not release GPL libraries, because then you can't link them against closed-source software.

            And this goes against the whole philosophy of the FSF and Debian, who have always maintained that software freedom is the main issue, and LGPL was a lesser license. At the point when KDE was more free (per FSF definition), Debian included it into the repositories (stopping the boycott), but kept it as a second class citizen.

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            • #21
              @pingufunkybeat That is not really correct. kdelibs is LGPL, the rest is mostly GPL.
              Though there is one thing you have to keep in mind, kdelibs can use parts that are GPL, so if one wanted to use kdelibs commercially they would have to make sure that any dependency is LGPL or a weaker license as well.

              I also find it sad that Qt gets ignored, because I think that it is a lot better than what I have read (! not used it myself) about GTK. Take this [1] and this [2]. Yeah it is great that GTK _finally_ catches up, but come one I did not experience those issues with Qt since ... ages, I can't even remember such issues.

              And in fact a lot is happening in Qt-land, just read Qt Labs. My personal favourite -- even tough it was not that much work for them and is not complicated at all -- is the way the wrapper for OpenCl works. That is OpenCl done easy and clean.

              [1] http://live.gnome.org/MathiasHasselm...wLayoutManager
              [2] http://blogs.gnome.org/tvb/2010/04/1...ayout-for-gtk/

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by mat69 View Post
                @pingufunkybeat That is not really correct. kdelibs is LGPL, the rest is mostly GPL.
                Though there is one thing you have to keep in mind, kdelibs can use parts that are GPL, so if one wanted to use kdelibs commercially they would have to make sure that any dependency is LGPL or a weaker license as well.

                I also find it sad that Qt gets ignored, because I think that it is a lot better than what I have read (! not used it myself) about GTK. Take this [1] and this [2]. Yeah it is great that GTK _finally_ catches up, but come one I did not experience those issues with Qt since ... ages, I can't even remember such issues.

                And in fact a lot is happening in Qt-land, just read Qt Labs. My personal favourite -- even tough it was not that much work for them and is not complicated at all -- is the way the wrapper for OpenCl works. That is OpenCl done easy and clean.

                [1] http://live.gnome.org/MathiasHasselm...wLayoutManager
                [2] http://blogs.gnome.org/tvb/2010/04/1...ayout-for-gtk/
                What Mat69 said. Qt is open, as long as you don't want to sell your software, and Uhm... KDE is dependent on Qt.

                The first release of KDE for Debian was 2.2.2. Can't recall when Qt stopped having such a jacked license though.

                Either way, Qt does look / act a bit better under other Operating Systems than GTK does, but both libraries are quite nice. I just simply prefer Gnome over KDE, and so do a lot of people.

                leech

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by leech View Post
                  What Mat69 said. Qt is open, as long as you don't want to sell your software, and Uhm... KDE is dependent on Qt.
                  That is not what I said.
                  What I said is that you have to make sure whatever is used in kdelibs is LGPL if you sell stuff that depends on LGPL. Qt itself is GPL, LGPL and QPL as has been pointed out already. GTK has _no_ license advantage anymore.

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                  • #24
                    Ximian is no more; Novell is now knee-deep in bed with KDE SC (and Microsoft.
                    Qt is now GPL'd.
                    Gnome is on the upgrading tour and found a purpose in becomming a completely semantic orientated desktop and the Gnome-shell screenie on the Fedora 13 introduction page looks sexy.
                    KDE SC 4.5 beta is news on Phoronix.
                    Flamewars have been fun but going on too long...

                    Bury the axes?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Awwww.

                      If we don't flame KDE and GNOME, what are we going to do?!

                      You must be an Emacs user!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        What Mat69 said. Qt is open, as long as you don't want to sell your software, and Uhm... KDE is dependent on Qt.
                        Qt is LGPL.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          You guys are missing the point talking about which distros run what. Michael only ever cares about one - Ubuntu. And that runs GTK/Gnome, so that's all that ever gets covered here. Which is fine. Honestly I'd rather read the KDE/Qt news from the source anyway, and let Michael cover what he knows rather than trying to poorly cover something he doesn't.

                          And just to throw flames on the fire, is there a single new technology that GTK3 is supporting that Qt hasn't already had for at least 2 years?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                            No, it means that you can plug four mouses into your computer and they'll all work independently.
                            But I can already do that with the current releases of Ubuntu and Fedora...

                            And yes I understand this allows it natively on an application level but I can still have four mice hooked up now and have multiple independent pointers/keyboards and operate multiple programs at once.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                              You must be an Emacs user!
                              Virtualising operating systems is overrated

                              PS: Would love to master emacs though

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by unimatrix View Post
                                Any idea when and how that will be made possible?
                                Wow! If all the OT posters haven't scared you off…

                                Having multiple pointers is already possible with a reasonably up to date distro. (Within a year).

                                Use “xinput list” to get a list of all attached input devices. You can refer to these by either their full names, or their ids.

                                “xinput create-master” creates a new master pointer. You can attach input devices to that master pointer using “xinput reattach.” Attaching both a keyboard and a mouse to a pointer essentially permits you to enter text in two places at once.

                                Lots of interesting stuff emerges, like touch screen / tablet interaction that doesn't interfere with the mouse, but acts in its own distinct fashion.

                                Naturally there's a long way to go. This feature started with MPX, and it's making its way through the stack. With support in GTK, it is possible for an application to make use of all the extra information provided by xinput 2, including multiple distinct pointers. Right now, if you use two pointers in the same app, it gets really confused.

                                Hopefully, given love and time, we will see distros using the new functionality in smart ways
                                This is a spot where Linux has a real chance to innovate.

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