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  • #16
    Originally posted by M1kkko View Post
    Doesn't such a thing exist already?

    Just after a bit of research: http://gitorious.org/ringo

    "Ringo is a runtime environment that runs Mac Applications on GNU/Linux"

    I haven't tried that myself and I don't know if it works yet. But at least it's work-in-progress.
    That's definitely not what I have in mind. That's like Wine.
    There are three possibilities for running OSX applications on Linux;
    1) Wine-like emulator (bad for the same reasons as Wine is bad... nothing works.)
    2) Virtual machine (way too much overhead, zero integration...)
    3) Take existing workable OSX userland and run it on a Linux kernel.
    #3 is what I'm talking about. A similar thing is done for running debian/GNU userland on Android devices: http://www.mayrhofer.eu.org/debian-on-android
    ... of course the advantage there, is that there is no problem interfacing that userland with the Linux kernel.

    Basically, we don't want to have to run a second kernel, and we don't want to be stuck with the hackish wine-type crap where everything has to be reimplemented the hard way.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
      Basically, we don't want to have to run a second kernel, and we don't want to be stuck with the hackish wine-type crap where everything has to be reimplemented the hard way.
      How do you imagine doing that? Most of the libaries that application actually interact with in OS X are propietary.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
        That's definitely not what I have in mind. That's like Wine.
        There are three possibilities for running OSX applications on Linux;
        1) Wine-like emulator (bad for the same reasons as Wine is bad... nothing works.)
        This is almost certainly what i would like, minus nothing working (of course). For me, Wine actually works very well. Although, most of my usage is proaudio plugins, which many at this point (both free and commercial) work very well. I know a few other people who successfully are running (other types of) windows applications in Wine that work, and a reliable. but obviously there are many that still do not work, or are buggy.

        Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
        2) Virtual machine (way too much overhead, zero integration...)
        MacOSX virtualized also comes with some limitations (as all VMs do), the main one being no Quartz-extreme and thus any apps that require it will not work, with a few exceptions that have been made to work. You can get (some) 3d acceleration, using vmware svga II drivers for mac;

        http://sourceforge.net/projects/vmsvga2/

        You can get some integration using the Darwin vmware tools from VMware fusion for Mac, ie: drag drop, auto-resize, etc. while also being able to use MacOSX (native) drivers for attached devices/hardware. But obviously, overhead is always an issue - although a Win7 VM sucks up way more resources than MacOSX - and performance (aside from some animations, due to lacking QE) is actually decent.

        Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
        3) Take existing workable OSX userland and run it on a Linux kernel.
        #3 is what I'm talking about. A similar thing is done for running debian/GNU userland on Android devices: http://www.mayrhofer.eu.org/debian-on-android
        ... of course the advantage there, is that there is no problem interfacing that userland with the Linux kernel.

        Basically, we don't want to have to run a second kernel, and we don't want to be stuck with the hackish wine-type crap where everything has to be reimplemented the hard way.
        I actually tend to think #3 is the hardest way, and with lots of changes probably required to the linux kernel, itself. A lot of kernel interfaces would probably have to be modified in order to support various things from Darwin/MacOSX. It would probably require having a huge delta to maintain, as i can't see upstream linux development supporting it. as well as other technical (and probably legal) issues to boot....

        1 and 2 also offer some advantages that 3 doesn't, as your third option would mean gnu/linux software would become a 2nd class citizen (or non-existent), ironically -> on a linux system you'd have macports (in your Mac-userspace) for some stuff, but i would prefer to keep my Linux Desktop intact (otherwise, i might as well just use MacOSX and it's proper kernel). Access to gnu/gpl/free software is much better on most (good) distros over MacPorts, as well.

        I actually hope this Ringo Project turns into something, that i might actually be able to make use of.

        Where as your #3 seems pretty much pointless, and would yield no benefits. In the case of Debian on Android - it actually makes sense, and would be good - as lots of people would like to be able to run your standard gnu/linux desktop + applications on their Android device.

        Can you give a good example, of how running MacOSX on linux would actually be useful?

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        • #19
          Native access to Photoshop, et al?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by curaga View Post
            Native access to Photoshop, et al?
            Come 2.10 (which should be coming rather sooner than the last release, unless something unforeseen happens), GIMP will have closed a significant gap with PS. What's more, the filters will start to look far better just by enabling 24bit color.
            What I would like from Mac are some of their little goodies like TextMate.
            Access to some of their media tools would be a bonus, though I do hope that major apps like Avid, Vegas, PT move to the new gstreamer sdk.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by liam View Post
              Come 2.10 (which should be coming rather sooner than the last release, unless something unforeseen happens), GIMP will have closed a significant gap with PS. What's more, the filters will start to look far better just by enabling 24bit color.
              What I would like from Mac are some of their little goodies like TextMate.
              Access to some of their media tools would be a bonus, though I do hope that major apps like Avid, Vegas, PT move to the new gstreamer sdk.
              If you want a text editor native to Linux like text mate here is one (it is proprietary and costs $59 for license, technically it is free of charge to use but it will nag you to buy a license after a while).
              http://www.sublimetext.com/2

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              • #22
                Should join up with this guy


                http://forums.crackberry.com/news-ru...aybook-729197/



                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by liam View Post
                  Come 2.10 (which should be coming rather sooner than the last release, unless something unforeseen happens), GIMP will have closed a significant gap with PS. What's more, the filters will start to look far better just by enabling 24bit color.
                  One gap... CMYK is on the 'low priority list' and PS has some pretty big features / plugins that Gimp can't yet compete with. Getting higher bit depths is huge though.

                  After seeing mention of gimp, i decided to update Gimp on my machine;


                  You would be correct, Liam. 2.10 can't be to far away now, and there is also a gtk3 branch now;

                  Originally posted by Gimp-git
                  From git://git.gnome.org/gimp
                  b5081a6..ea497fb master -> origin/master
                  a1525c3..7355c59 gimp-2-6 -> origin/gimp-2-6
                  * [new branch] gimp-2-8 -> origin/gimp-2-8
                  + 641338d...3d266b6 gtk3-port -> origin/gtk3-port (forced update)
                  From git://git.gnome.org/gimp
                  * [new tag] GIMP_2_8_0 -> GIMP_2_8_0
                  the diff on the update was huge too. Time to have a look around

                  Originally posted by liam View Post
                  What I would like from Mac are some of their little goodies like TextMate.
                  Access to some of their media tools would be a bonus, though I do hope that major apps like Avid, Vegas, PT move to the new gstreamer sdk.
                  sublime text is pretty good. I love the visual scrolling.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by liam View Post
                    Come 2.10 (which should be coming rather sooner than the last release, unless something unforeseen happens), GIMP will have closed a significant gap with PS. What's more, the filters will start to look far better just by enabling 24bit color.
                    Preaching to the choir mate, I've been using Gimp exclusively for years.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by n3wu53r View Post
                      If you want a text editor native to Linux like text mate here is one (it is proprietary and costs $59 for license, technically it is free of charge to use but it will nag you to buy a license after a while).
                      http://www.sublimetext.com/2

                      Thanks for the link. I wasn't familiar with this one.
                      I only mentioned TextMate b/c it was supposed to be this incredibly versatile editor so I've been interested in trying it out, but not so interested as to get a Mac in order to do so. IOW, similar to gedit (which has tons of plugins, including a set to give it TM like capabilities) or Kate.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by curaga View Post
                        Preaching to the choir mate, I've been using Gimp exclusively for years.
                        Ah, well, then we can call it a PSA.
                        Although 2.10 will be really terrific, the port to gtk 3 will be SO much better. There were some interesting ideas being thrown around about using stylesheets to enable really interesting interfaces for various types of workflow. Additionally, 3.0 (which COULD happen at the same time as 2.10, but probably not) means they move to full cairo support, so no more problems with aliasing as they've had in the past (but fixed in the last year or so), accelerated drawing (potentially, with the GL backend, though my mind has been changed radically about the benefits of hw acclerated 2d drawing), and generally nicer design.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ninez View Post
                          One gap... CMYK is on the 'low priority list' and PS has some pretty big features / plugins that Gimp can't yet compete with. Getting higher bit depths is huge though.

                          After seeing mention of gimp, i decided to update Gimp on my machine;


                          You would be correct, Liam. 2.10 can't be to far away now, and there is also a gtk3 branch now;



                          the diff on the update was huge too. Time to have a look around



                          sublime text is pretty good. I love the visual scrolling.
                          I knew the goat-invasion branch had been extremely active after that 3 week hackfest sometime prior to LGM but I haven't built it yet. Nice to see that pic thoughd
                          CMYK isn't so much GIMP's problem as it is babl's, and I don't know the status of CMYK in babl.
                          Photoshop has such an extensive collection of plugins, brushes, macros, and just simple users that GIMP has a long way to go to get close to true parity on any but the technical level. One advantage GIMP has is that you tend to see rather interesting plugins being built for it (though, unfortunately, not centrally located), especially by academics. The most famous being the liquid resizer plugin which PS added a good while after GIMP had the plugin.
                          Something else that hasn't been spoken of much is that with GEGL comes the potential for recordable macros. I know that has been something people have been moaning about for ages.
                          There's also the extensive OpenCL work that's going into GEGL. See the recent Tom's Hardware article where they look at GIMP, Photoshop, Bibble, and one other whose name I can't recall. The speedup OpenCL provides is utterly astonishing. What's also really interesting is that they seem to have moved to OpenCL for all their heavily threaded operations even when there is no expectation of a GPU.

                          BTW, for some reason planetccrma's rt kernel's have become stable enough for me to use as my regular kernel.
                          If I heavily prioritize a process I get microsecond (well, hundreds of usec, typically) level responses, even with the machine being hammered by pings (rt wiki has some rather nasty tests). Unfortunately it has also just killed battery life (idle has gone from about 7W to 13W).
                          Regardless, it is just fantastic to be able to do let processes run wild (say, compiling) without it impacting the UI at all. What I'd like to see is if Android can be run from the 3.4 kernel with the RT patches. Battery life would suffer but you should get a really reliably responsive system.

                          Best/Liam
                          Last edited by liam; 06-16-2012, 02:41 AM.

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                          • #28
                            About Gimp; I agree technically Gimp has many strong points, i was only pointing out that PS is still miles ahead in some areas. about plugins - personally, G'mic is probably the most often set of plugins i use in gimp. gmic is also handy if you are processing a folder of pictures from the commanline. very nice.

                            2.9.1 is also little slow and buggy (as to be somewhat expected). In particular, drawing seems slower, gegl too and gimp chokes, a bit. But this will improve, quite positively. Gimp is set to become much more competitive, in terms of features that professionals would typically expect. For me personally, it's getting there. Although, i would love to see gimp's animation plugin become more powerful. PS has good animation features, for what it is.

                            Originally posted by liam
                            BTW, for some reason planetccrma's rt kernel's have become stable enough for me to use as my regular kernel.
                            If I heavily prioritize a process I get microsecond (well, hundreds of usec, typically) level responses, even with the machine being hammered by pings (rt wiki has some rather nasty tests). Unfortunately it has also just killed battery life (idle has gone from about 7W to 13W).

                            Regardless, it is just fantastic to be able to do let processes run wild (say, compiling) without it impacting the UI at all. What I'd like to see is if Android can be run from the 3.4 kernel with the RT patches. Battery life would suffer but you should get a really reliably responsive system.
                            I'm not surprised on either count. I use 3.2.18-rt29 as my 'regular' kernel, with one exception ~ if i try to move 200-300 gigs of data (say a backup or something) my system will hang somewhere aournd 100gigs/transfer (give or take 30g). I'm not surprised that interactivity with ui isn't affected. it's uncommon for me to have browser/videos, synths/apps, etc (all being used), while compiling. I could even throw a VM in there.

                            do you mean it killed battery life (in general), or when you pounded (tested) the system?
                            Last edited by ninez; 06-16-2012, 03:30 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              [QUOTE=ninez;268950]About Gimp; I agree technically Gimp has many strong points, i was only pointing out that PS is still miles ahead in some areas. about plugins - personally, G'mic is probably the most often set of plugins i use in gimp. gmic is also handy if you are processing a folder of pictures from the commanline. very nice.
                              {/QUOTE]

                              I haven't tried that before. I glanced at the website and it looks similar to imagemagick.

                              2.9.1 is also little slow and buggy (as to be somewhat expected). In particular, drawing seems slower, gegl too and gimp chokes, a bit. But this will improve, quite positively. Gimp is set to become much more competitive, in terms of features that professionals would typically expect. For me personally, it's getting there. Although, i would love to see gimp's animation plugin become more powerful. PS has good animation features, for what it is.
                              I mentioned the tomshardware article previously. It showed a few graphs and Mpixel/sec for both OpenCL and without. The without numbers were VERY low without OpenCL. I believe the author even stated that it was unusable without OpenCL.
                              As for animation, I know of only a few OSS methods (besides Blender, obviously). One, GIMP, but, as you know, it is simply not designed for that workflow (OTOH, neither is PS). Two, Synfig Studio. Really nice vector key frame animations. I haven't used it a huge amount, but it was pretty easy to pick up and had nice results. The third method is... Inkscape. The best thing about the later is you can use javascript animation libraries to do some of the heavy lifting.

                              I'm not surprised on either count. I use 3.2.18-rt29 as my 'regular' kernel, with one exception ~ if i try to move 200-300 gigs of data (say a backup or something) my system will hang somewhere aournd 100gigs/transfer (give or take 30g). I'm not surprised that interactivity with ui isn't affected. it's uncommon for me to have browser/videos, synths/apps, etc (all being used), while compiling. I could even throw a VM in there.

                              do you mean it killed battery life (in general), or when you pounded (tested) the system?
                              How long does it hang for? I assume you've already tried various elevators? IIRC, you're on an older kernel. I recall a problem with media vm writeback being fixed in 3.3 that addressed problems with writing to relatively slow media.
                              The energy use I measured was only for idle. If it was on load I'd expect (though haven't measured) roughly similar Watt values.

                              Best/Liam

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by liam View Post
                                I haven't tried that before. I glanced at the website and it looks similar to imagemagick.
                                Similar, yes. But like i said, i use it quite a bit in Gimp. it is good.

                                Originally posted by liam View Post
                                I mentioned the tomshardware article previously. It showed a few graphs and Mpixel/sec for both OpenCL and without. The without numbers were VERY low without OpenCL. I believe the author even stated that it was unusable without OpenCL.
                                As for animation, I know of only a few OSS methods (besides Blender, obviously). One, GIMP, but, as you know, it is simply not designed for that workflow (OTOH, neither is PS). Two, Synfig Studio. Really nice vector key frame animations. I haven't used it a huge amount, but it was pretty easy to pick up and had nice results. The third method is... Inkscape. The best thing about the later is you can use javascript animation libraries to do some of the heavy lifting.
                                You can say PS isn't designed for Animation, but compared to gimp - it is very advanced and does provide a pretty straight forward workflow (for an app that isn't/wasn't designed for animation, specifically). Animation in Gimp is terrible, even CinePaint provides a better workflow. As for the rest, i've used all of them. Anything like video editing / animation / making a flashy DVD / etc i won't even do using Linux (yet). Yesd, there are a few options but none of them seem complete, or even worse are somewhat cumbersome and/or broken compared to most of the commercial options.

                                Originally posted by liam View Post
                                How long does it hang for? I assume you've already tried various elevators? IIRC, you're on an older kernel. I recall a problem with media vm writeback being fixed in 3.3 that addressed problems with writing to relatively slow media.
                                The energy use I measured was only for idle. If it was on load I'd expect (though haven't measured) roughly similar Watt values.
                                Yes, i tried several things. As far as how long? -> i never bothered to find out, i ssh in and restart. It wasn't a big deal, because i have a couple of kernels, installed - so i just switched to do the file transfer (of 300gigs). Interesting about 3.3 fix, that sounds like it may have been the issue. I do plan on upgrading to 3.4-rt shortly, but just haven't gotten around to it - and it's not something that has been important as 3.2-rt is working well.

                                I probably will migrate to systemd, around the same time too.

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