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  • #76
    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    It sounds obvious to me it doesn't overcommit available memory - otherwise this statement will be false, don't you think?
    No, I don't think so.


    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    It can be more feature rich which isn't equal to being bloated. There are for sure differences between GNU's cat, echo and not GNU equivalents.
    Non-standard functions in utilities are bloat, since portable scripts should not depend on them. Why two parameters for same thing like "-A" and "--show-all"?
    cat utility is not IDE.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by kraftman View Post
      I think you shouldn't judge something just because you don't like it. Your likeness or hatred towards something has no impact on reality. That's why Gentoo remains simple, not bloated distribution.
      My likeness or hatred towards something comes from reality.
      Portage is written in Python, this makes it bloated and less reliable (if something is wrong with Python). Also compiling X11 or Firefox ... is not really interesting.

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      • #78
        Pointing at GNU or the BSDs to say that linux userland is bloated is, well, wrong target. It means that those GNU/BSD utils are.

        Everyone's entirely free to use busybox, toybox, plan9 utils, or asmutils, and I bet you can find a distro that defaults to each of those.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by curaga View Post
          Pointing at GNU or the BSDs to say that linux userland is bloated is, well, wrong target. It means that those GNU/BSD utils are.

          Everyone's entirely free to use busybox, toybox, plan9 utils, or asmutils, and I bet you can find a distro that defaults to each of those.
          I said userland, because glibc is also bloated not just utils.
          I would be very interested to see Linux distribution without GNU which would be usable as desktop os (not only for firewalls ...).
          Last edited by LightBit; 05-05-2012, 01:35 PM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by kraftman View Post
            I think he meant OpenBSD ships with much older versions.
            They're not *much* old and he's doing an apples to oranges comparison. Doesn't count.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by LightBit View Post
              I said userland, because glibc is also bloated not just utils.
              I would be very interested to see Linux distribution without GNU which would be usable as desktop os (not only for firewalls ...).
              http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=alpine

              Alpine is uclibc/busybox, and can be used as a desktop IIRC. Tiny Core is glibc+busybox. Aboriginal is uclibc+bb, but doesn't do X IIRC. Gentoo can be configured like that. Etc.


              I do wonder why, if your target is a desktop, the bloat of glibc and GNU utils even registers; surely the bloat of firefox exceeds their combined bloat 1000-fold? Even the bloat of Xorg is a lot when compared to tinyX, but you still want the acceleration for desktop use.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by LightBit View Post
                My likeness or hatred towards something comes from reality.
                Portage is written in Python, this makes it bloated and less reliable (if something is wrong with Python). Also compiling X11 or Firefox ... is not really interesting.
                All this means is you don't know anything about Gentoo.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by LightBit View Post
                  No, I don't think so.
                  It was a rhetoric question. It's exactly like I said.

                  Non-standard functions in utilities are bloat, since portable scripts should not depend on them. Why two parameters for same thing like "-A" and "--show-all"?
                  cat utility is not IDE.
                  Who decides what's standard and not? I prefer GNU way.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by LightBit View Post
                    My likeness or hatred towards something comes from reality.
                    Portage is written in Python, this makes it bloated and less reliable (if something is wrong with Python). Also compiling X11 or Firefox ... is not really interesting.
                    The example with Gentoo was about ability to tune your system how you like. There were also another example - LFS and there's nothing that can beat it. Arch Linux is somehow similar to Gentoo, but you don't have to compile anything.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by brad0 View Post
                      They're not *much* old and he's doing an apples to oranges comparison. Doesn't count.
                      I agree it's apples to oranges comparison, but it's not me that was comparing OpenBSD to Ubuntu rather than RHEL or Debian.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by LightBit View Post
                        I said userland, because glibc is also bloated not just utils.
                        I would be very interested to see Linux distribution without GNU which would be usable as desktop os (not only for firewalls ...).
                        I don't see how glibc is bloated. As far as I know it's possible to have usable Linux without GNU. This is one of the reasons I don't like calling it a GNU/Linux.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                          I don't see how glibc is bloated. As far as I know it's possible to have usable Linux without GNU. This is one of the reasons I don't like calling it a GNU/Linux.
                          libc.so (amd64, strip -s):
                          Arch Linux: 1.7MB
                          OpenBSD: 793.6KB

                          Possible, but hard.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by fuzz View Post
                            All this means is you don't know anything about Gentoo.
                            I never tried it thats true.
                            http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handboo...?part=2&chap=1

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                              It was a rhetoric question. It's exactly like I said.
                              I guess that was rhetorical answer then.
                              I tried and it seems you are right. Documentation is a bit confusing.

                              Is there any way to limit memory usage per process?


                              Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                              Who decides what's standard and not? I prefer GNU way.
                              Yes, that is a problem. I prefer POSIX way, but that is subjective.
                              POSIX is accepted as standard by many OSes.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by curaga View Post
                                http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=alpine

                                Alpine is uclibc/busybox, and can be used as a desktop IIRC. Tiny Core is glibc+busybox. Aboriginal is uclibc+bb, but doesn't do X IIRC. Gentoo can be configured like that. Etc.


                                I do wonder why, if your target is a desktop, the bloat of glibc and GNU utils even registers; surely the bloat of firefox exceeds their combined bloat 1000-fold? Even the bloat of Xorg is a lot when compared to tinyX, but you still want the acceleration for desktop use.
                                I did know Alpine Linux, but I didn't know it can run XFCE, Firefox and other desktop required bloat. I will try it.

                                I want to use same OS for server and desktop.
                                All web browsers are bloated, because web standards are bloated. And I hope wayland won't be bloated, but maybe i'm to optimistic.
                                I actually don't need acceleration for my desktop use.

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