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  • #16
    So what is Trolling? It is not lying, because I am not - you confessed I do not lie. Also, no one has ever been able to quote my on any lies, never. If you find some of my lyings, go ahead and quote them. Ergo, I am not lying. We both agree on this.



    Regarding your links, have you read them? For instance I claim that Linux kernel is bloated, I have claimed that for a long time, several years, and posted links where Linux kernel developers such as Andrew Morton agrees. Of course you have always objected to that, saying I am FUDing about Linux bloat. Only recently, even Linus Torvals himself admitted that Linus is bloated:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09..._bloated_huge/

    "LinuxCon 2009 Linux creator Linus Torvalds says the open source kernel has become "bloated and huge," with no midriff-slimming diet plan in sight."

    So where am I lying here? Or FUDing? Even Linux creator agrees! Or do you mean I am lying and FUDing about Linux bloat, then also Linus Torvalds is lying and FUDing? This bloat I have known for many years, and you have always categorically denied and claimed I am only FUDing! But now Linus is agreeing with me. Enough said. It IS true that Linux is bloated.

    So no FUD, nor lies here. This is true.



    Regarding the other links, for instance where I talk about IBM POWER6 and IBM Mainframe. I claim that "according to official TPC-C benchmarks, you need four 5GHz POWER6 to match two 2.93GHz Intel Nehalem" and I claim that there are examples where 1.4GHz Niagara crushes the 5GHz POWER6, easily. For instance official SIEBEL v8 benchmarks, where you need six(6) P570 Powerservers to match one SUN T5440! And one P570 costs $413.000 and one SUN T5440 costs $76.000! These P570 Powerservers has a total of 28 POWER6 CPUs! Versus SUN T5440 which has four 1.4GHz! So I am trying to say that POWER6 is not that fast as IBM claims.

    Regarding IBM Mainframes, one modern z10 CPU gives you 437 Mainframe MIPS, and one Nehalem-EX gives you 400 MIPS (under software emulation which is a factor 5-10x performance hit!). One IBM Mainframe with 64 CPUs is not faster than 16 Nehalem-EX. And I suspect that Mainframe costs more than $50 million! So you are better off with emulating an Mainframe with "Herkules" in Linux:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercule...or#Performance

    So I dont lie here, either. No FUD nor lies. (The thing is lots of IBM people are attacking me, they hate when I post such information)



    Regarding "I back up my statements by giving SUN related links", well you do not back up your statements. I have given lots of links where Linux is buggy and bloated on Enterprise work and people are forced to migrate to a UNIX. You have claimed that Solaris is buggy and I have asked for links but you have never shown any. You have showed links as, where one guy couldnt install and old version of Solaris on his computer. I give links, you give no relevant links.

    For instance, I recently showed links where SUN machine is faster than Linux on SAP benchmarks, on equivalent 8 socket CPU machines. I showed one SUN webpage that had official certified SAP benchmarks linking to www.sap.com. And you accused me of posting "SUN propaganda"?? I mean, the certified SAP benchmarks are found on www.sap.com, not on SUN webpage. SUN only pointed further to www.sap.com. So why is www.sap.com SUN propaganda? It is not SUN propaganda.



    And the rest of your links, if you read them, they are similar. People have nothing relevant to say, they can not counter my posts.

    Comment


    • #17
      So what is Trolling?
      Exactly what you're doing - spreading FUD, propaganda, advertising SUN, linking to SUN benchmarks and using them to backup your statements, maybe even lying, ignoring other people arguments. Many people already answered you to what you're saying here. I gave you plenty of precious links too.

      Ergo, I am not lying. We both agree on this.
      Another example, straw man. It seems every of your response is a straw man one. Like here:

      This bloat I have known for many years, and you have always categorically denied and claimed I am only FUDing! But now Linus is agreeing with me. Enough said. It IS true that Linux is bloated.
      You got answers to this many times and it seems you're lying saying Linus agreed with you - he was talking about something else and it was explained to you many times, but you being a troll ignored this. Orvar? Keep playing, many things can be proved.
      Last edited by kraftman; 01-26-2010, 12:22 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by glasen View Post
        The only problem here is that most of the benchmark tests of the PTS are compiled at runtime.
        So what? All tests at some point or another uses functionality provided by the kernel... So for OS's where the common practice is to compile the kernel, that is imho the relevant test. As a side not on kernels, at least the FreeBSD kernel is compiled with debug info, are any of the linux kernels? Not calling for a retest here, just thought that it could/should be mentioned in the article.

        And I also agree that it would be interesting to see the results from a more recent OpenSolaris release. If testing unreleased version of Linux distros is accepted, why not "released" versions of OpenSolaris?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
          Exactly what you're doing - spreading FUD, propaganda, advertising SUN, linking to SUN benchmarks and using them to backup your statements, maybe even lying, ignoring other people arguments. Many people already answered you to what you're saying here. I gave you plenty of precious links too.
          So if I post true facts, that even the Linux kernel developers (including Linus T) agree on, then I am FUDing?

          And when I post to SUN pages, that links to official SAP benchmarks, SIEBEL v8 benchmarks, TPC-C benches, SPECfp2006 benches, etc - then I am "linking to SUN benchmarks"?


          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
          Another example, straw man. It seems every of your response is a straw man one. Like here:
          Ok, so if we both dont agree on that I dont lie, please point out the lies then. Go ahead. I am waiting. Look, you can not accuse someone else of being a liar if you can not prove it. So, prove it now. Show that I am a liar. Go on.


          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
          You got answers to this many times and it seems you're lying saying Linus agreed with you - he was talking about something else and it was explained to you many times, but you being a troll ignored this. Orvar? Keep playing, many things can be proved
          So prove the things then! Go ahead. There is much talk and accusations from you, but no action. If I am a liar, then you have to prove it. You can not accuse others of being a liar, if it is not true. If Linus T doesnt say that the kernel is bloated (which he said), then what did he mean? Could you interpret his words to us, oh Great Interpreter of Linus T? Or, maybe you are just wrong.

          It is like London stock exchange switches their Windows based system to another based on Linux + Solaris (because of many crashes and problems) and all Microsoft people explains "no, there is no problem, they just wanted to swap Windows for Linux. There is no real reason to do that." The Windows system costed 40 million British Sterling Pounds to develop! No one throws out such a system easily, without very good reasons. When the MS people explains, I just chuckles. You sound just like them. When Linus T says the kernel is bloated, I listen to your explanation and smile. Of course when Linus T says the kernel is bloated, he doesnt mean it. He means that the big stone he saw earlier, is bloated. He doesnt mean the kernel. Jesus. How can it be more clearer? Linus says explicitly it is bloated, but no. That doesnt do for you.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by kebabbert View Post
            So if I post true facts, that even the Linux kernel developers (including Linus T) agree on, then I am FUDing?
            Yes, you're FUDing, because Linus meant different thing then you when he said "bloated". You're FUDing also about scalability etc.

            At osnews.com people already answered probably to everything you're saying here about. That's why I consider you're trolling and what's the fact you're cross posting. You even quoted some person in one of your responses there who is even more known then you when comes to trolling :> (you even quoted his response from Phoronix from one of the threads you were trolling long ago).

            Btw. you didn't only link to SAP benchmarks and if you did, afaik it was meaningless. And why should I care explaining you a thing? I find this funny, because I know a little about you.
            Last edited by kraftman; 01-26-2010, 01:04 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by kraftman View Post
              Yes, you're FUDing, because Linus meant different thing then you when he said "bloated".
              Linus says in the link I provided:
              "The kernel is huge and bloated, and our icache footprint is scary. I mean, there is no question about that. And whenever we add a new feature, it only gets worse."

              Actually, I find it hard to interpret this in another way than Linux is bloated. Linus T says explicitly "KERNEL IS BLOATED...THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT". He says so. But of course, what do I know. Probably he talked about Windows kernel, or he talk about James Bond having a dinner and getting bloated, or maybe he just meant that... the Linux kernel is bloated? I mean, come on, Linus T SAYS it is bloated. He says so. But no, Linus didnt mean that? How do you know what Linus means? Can you read his mind?

              I feel like trying to convince a madman:
              -Look, it is raining.
              -No it is not
              -Well you are wet. It IS raining!
              -No I am not wet
              -But you just dried water off from your face, you are WET! Hallo? You are WET!
              -No I am not.

              I mean... what else can you say? If he refuses to admit he is wet, then I can say nothing more. Clearly, he is a crazy madman. Or just plain weird? What do you think if you met a guy that behaved just like that?


              Originally posted by kraftman View Post
              You're FUDing also about scalability etc.
              Oh yes? I posted lots of links about Linux bad scalability, for instance, on SAP benchmarks, from www.sap.com. SUN does not own SAP, SAP it is not SUN propaganda, just as you claim. The SAP certified benches show that SAP on Linux on 8 CPUs, had only 87% CPU utilization. On Solaris, the 8 cpus achieved 99% utilization (scales better). I have been taught that 87% is less than 99%. But hey, what do I know? Maybe it is NOT raining, maybe 87% is more than 99%?
              http://download.sap.com/download.epd...11DE75E0922A14

              http://download.sap.com/download.epd...FCA652F4AD1B4C


              Originally posted by kraftman View Post
              Btw. you didn't only link to SAP benchmarks and if you did, afaik it was meaningless. And why should I care explaining you a thing? I find this funny, because I know a little about you.
              Well, now I did it again! I linked to SAP benchmarks! And they dont count, because it seems that Linux is slower. If SAP benches proved that Linux was faster, then SAP would be a good reliable site, yes? You are a bit selective?


              Originally posted by kraftman View Post
              At osnews.com people already answered probably to everything you're saying here about. That's why I consider you're trolling and what's the fact you're cross posting. You even quoted some person in one of your responses there who is even more known then you when comes to trolling :> (you even quoted his response from Phoronix from one of the threads you were trolling long ago).
              I must say that you have a strange opinion on what trolling is. To post links and official benchmarks is Trolling? Then I understand why dont consider yourself as a Troll: because you never provide any relevant links!

              My opinion on a Troll differs from your opinion. I think most people's view on Troll agrees with mine. If so, then it is YOU that is the Troll. If you can not back up your claims (which I always ask you to do, but you never do) then you are spreading lies and FUD and are Trolling. You have accused me of being a liar, but never once, provided any evidence on that. Never ever. So, what you claim is not true, I dont lie. In that case, it is you that lies about me. And hence, you are the liar. Not me. QED!

              Comment


              • #22
                Could you please stop your bickering. Your issuses have nothing to do with the article, so please use pm...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by kebabbert View Post
                  For instance I claim that Linux kernel is bloated, I have claimed that for a long time, several years, and posted links where Linux kernel developers such as Andrew Morton agrees. Of course you have always objected to that, saying I am FUDing about Linux bloat. Only recently, even Linus Torvals himself admitted that Linus is bloated:
                  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09..._bloated_huge/

                  "LinuxCon 2009 Linux creator Linus Torvalds says the open source kernel has become "bloated and huge," with no midriff-slimming diet plan in sight."

                  So where am I lying here? Or FUDing? Even Linux creator agrees! Or do you mean I am lying and FUDing about Linux bloat, then also Linus Torvalds is lying and FUDing? This bloat I have known for many years, and you have always categorically denied and claimed I am only FUDing! But now Linus is agreeing with me. Enough said. It IS true that Linux is bloated.

                  So no FUD, nor lies here. This is true.
                  Hey! We had that discussion before and I gave you the statistics about the Linux kernel. You didn't even commented or countered my answer but now you make posts as if that conversation hadn't take place at all. I can only consider this as a neglect of the facts in purpose...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Apopas View Post
                    Hey! We had that discussion before and I gave you the statistics about the Linux kernel. You didn't even commented or countered my answer but now you make posts as if that conversation hadn't take place at all. I can only consider this as a neglect of the facts in purpose...
                    Exactly, this troll uses such tactics. He also "forgot" his osnews.com discussions. He's also accusing others to what exactly he's doing himself like straw man arguments. However, what to expect from person who loves sun and zfs:

                    http://markmail.org/message/jytcfqdg...+state:results

                    According to this webpage, there are some errors that makes ZFS unusable under
                    certain conditions. That is not really optimal for an Enterprise file system. In
                    my opinion the ZFS team should focus on bug correction instead of adding new
                    functionality. The functionality that exists far surpass any other file system,
                    therefore it is better to fix bugs. In my opinion.
                    If there are complaints, what should SUN do? Should the complaints be taken
                    seriously or not? Me love ZFS, and I dont want it to loose it's credibility.
                    BTW, ZFS rocks. Hard.
                    Ok, so you mean the comments are mostly FUD and bull shit? Because there are no
                    bug reports from the whiners? Could this be the case? It is mostly FUD? Hmmm...?
                    Orvar Korvar - Kebabbert, Kebbaber... yep, I know how this sounds. However, it's becoming less funny when you're reading all this bull.

                    Oh yes? I posted lots of links about Linux bad scalability, for instance, on [COLOR=#00C800 ! important][COLOR=#00C800 ! important]SAP[/COLOR][/COLOR] benchmarks, from www.sap.com. SUN does not own SAP, SAP it is not SUN propaganda, just as you claim. The SAP certified benches show that SAP on Linux on 8 CPUs, had only 87% CPU utilization. On Solaris, the 8 cpus achieved 99% utilization (scales better). I have been taught that 87% is less than 99%. But hey, what do I know? Maybe it is NOT raining, maybe 87% is more than 99%?
                    And you're showing me two different benchmarks? Good joke.
                    Last edited by kraftman; 01-26-2010, 04:39 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by andrnils View Post
                      Could you please stop your bickering. Your issuses have nothing to do with the article, so please use pm...
                      I posted something about they should try the latest OpenSolaris build. That is all I posted.

                      Then Kraftman came in here and attacked me, say I Troll again and lie and FUD etc. So who has problems, he or I? I think you should try to talk to Kraftman, not me?


                      Originally posted by Apopas View Post
                      Hey! We had that discussion before and I gave you the statistics about the Linux kernel. You didn't even commented or countered my answer but now you make posts as if that conversation hadn't take place at all. I can only consider this as a neglect of the facts in purpose...
                      No, you did not discuss this before. You talked earlier about number of Lines of Code, yes. You showed that Linux code is mostly device drivers and other architectures, yes, so I dont mention the number of LoC anymore, today. Thanks to your proof. See how simple it is to prove something? Just some us some links, instead of claiming things out of the blue. Proofs and links are always better. They work. I shut up if I see proofs. That is true. That is the reason I have asked Kraftman to show proofs, but he never does. Never.

                      But here I am quoting Linus T who says the kernel is bloated. Bloat is not the same thing as number of LoC. Is it not a fact that Linus T said the kernel is bloated? Is it not a fact that several Linux kernel developers said that Linux is buggy? Have I not posted such links? Am I lying?


                      Originally posted by Kraftman View Post
                      Exactly, this troll uses such tactics. He also "forgot" his osnews.com discussions.
                      What tactics do I use? What did I forget now? Can you quote that osnews.com discussion?

                      Regarding when I posted concerns about ZFS having problems, so what? I have written earlier that ZFS has problems, here. Everyone knows that ZFS is not really mature yet. It takes many years before a filesystem becomes mature and stable, BTRFS will not be usable within at least, 5 years from when it goes live, in the datacenters. Sure, you can use BTRFS in your home system, but that is another thing. If a filesystem has problems, it does not say anything about the Solaris kernel scaling well, does it? I dont understand what you are trying to prove with that link.

                      I have also posted here that OpenSolaris, which has not hit beta yet, is buggy. So what? Why dont you show us links where I write that OpenSolaris is buggy? What are you trying to prove? *confused*

                      Yes, you provide links about my earlier posts. I bet you sit and google for my nick the entire day and collect links what I have written. But you dont provide links that back up your claims! When you claim Solaris is buggy and scales bad, you never back up such links! Yes, you prove that I say that ZFS is buggy, but I have never said the opposite - I have never claimed that ZFS is bug free! Never. You have proven nothing with your link. Do you understand what you have proven? Nothing.

                      Could you, instead of googling my posts, google after relevant posts that backs up your claims about Solaris being slow and buggy and unstable and scaling bad? You have never showed one link that supports that, despite claiming that numerous times. I have always posted links upon request.



                      EDIT: what different SAP benchmarks have I showed you? Could you link to both, so I can see? Sometimes it is hard to follow you.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by kebabbert View Post
                        I posted something about they should try the latest OpenSolaris build. That is all I posted.

                        Then Kraftman came in here and attacked me, say I Troll again and lie and FUD etc. So who has problems, he or I? I think you should try to talk to Kraftman, not me?
                        You're a known troll who usually advertises SUN.

                        Could you, instead of googling my posts, google after relevant posts that backs up your claims about Solaris being slow and buggy and unstable and scaling bad? You have never showed one link that supports that, despite claiming that numerous times. I have always posted links upon request.
                        It was done before. Here and it seems also at osnews.com.

                        EDIT: what different SAP benchmarks have I showed you? Could you link to both, so I can see? Sometimes it is hard to follow you.
                        From this page:

                        http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=21

                        different memory amount. However, everything was said long ago, but if you want to talk start a new thread. Btw. it seems there's something wrong with your head

                        Could you, instead of googling my posts, google after relevant posts that backs up your claims about Solaris being slow and buggy and unstable and scaling bad? You have never showed one link that supports that, despite claiming that numerous times. I have always posted links upon request.
                        I gave you such link. Btw. did I mentioned here about Solaris being slow or buggy?
                        Last edited by kraftman; 01-26-2010, 05:03 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                          You're a known troll who usually advertises SUN.
                          You usually advertises Linux. It is ok if you advertise Linux, but it is a bad thing if I advertise SUN? Have I understood you correctly?


                          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                          It was done before. Here and it seems also at osnews.com.
                          Oh yes? In that case, you can quote some of the links that shows that Solaris scales bad, is unstable and buggy. Go ahead. Do it. Or are you just lying, again?


                          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                          Different memory amount. However, everything was said long ago, but if you want to talk start a new thread. Btw. it seems there's something wrong with your head
                          What are you talking about, "different memory amount"? Could you be clearer? When have I posted to different SAP benchmarks with different RAM amount? Could you link to both, so we can see what you are talking about?


                          Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                          I gave you such link. Btw. did I mentioned here about Solaris being slow or buggy?
                          Please give me that link again. In this thread you have not mentioned that about Solaris, but you have claimed that numerous times earlier, without providing any relevant links. Never. So please give that link now.
                          Last edited by kebabbert; 01-26-2010, 05:03 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Come on, instead of talking about different links, can you just post them instead so we know which links you are talking about? Or does the links not exist? You show links about my earlier posts, so well. Why cant you just show some other links, not about my posts? Links about my posts you can show, but no other links. Why? Come on. Just one link, that supports all those things you say. Just one.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by kebabbert View Post
                              You usually advertises Linux. It is ok if you advertise Linux, but it is a bad thing if I advertise SUN? Have I understood you correctly?
                              Where I advertise it? What I do is trying to figure out why there's sometimes something wrong with it, or some benchmark etc.

                              Oh yes? In that case, you can quote some of the links that shows that Solaris scales bad, is unstable and buggy. Go ahead. Do it. Or are you just lying, again?
                              New thread please.

                              What are you talking about, "different memory amount"? Could you be clearer? When have I posted to different SAP benchmarks with different RAM amount? Could you link to both, so we can see what you are talking about?
                              Exactly what this means. Here: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=21 few posts earlier. Another problems with memory?

                              Please give me that link again. In this thread you have not mentioned that about Solaris, but you have claimed that numerous times earlier, without providing any relevant links. Never. So please give that link now.
                              Nope, because afaik you never gave me a single relevant link. Why should I bother? Like I said, start a new thread.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by kebabbert View Post
                                No, you did not discuss this before.
                                When I say before I mean during the time I made that post my link shows...

                                But here I am quoting Linus T who says the kernel is bloated. Bloat is not the same thing as number of LoC. Is it not a fact that Linus T said the kernel is bloated? Is it not a fact that several Linux kernel developers said that Linux is buggy? Have I not posted such links? Am I lying?
                                Bloated and buggy are different things.
                                Back then, you had claimed that Linux kernel is bloated by providing two factss:
                                a) Linus says so
                                b) Linux has 11 million of LoC

                                What's the purpose of providing the LoC if not for justifying bloatness after all?
                                Last edited by Apopas; 01-26-2010, 05:33 PM.

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