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  • #16
    Originally posted by mark45 View Post
    1. Yes. It really matters, just like it matters if you have to do 30 or 150 push ups. And no, it's just a modern file format, nothing special or great about OOXML, just XML with lots of rules, just like ODF.

    2. 90% of the time you use 10% of the features, iow if you use advanced OOXML stuff on non-ms-office you're likely to get problems, no consolations here. And don't rely on LibreOffice supporting OOXML (as well as ms office) any time soon. Just don't waste your time on hoping. We've been hoping here for Wayland for 6 years and we're still not using the fucker. There's sooo many missed deadlines, so just don't expect stuff to happen soon, just use ms office.
    1. I should have clarified. I meant "Does it really matter how complicated the documentation is (now that we have a complete OSS implementation that we can use/base off of)". Obviously, if documentation was all we had to go off of, it would suck. Also, a file type can be good or bad based on the rules placed on the XML. It can lead to different file sizes, opening/rendering speed, etc. So far, OOXML has beat ODF in both size and speed, though it may just be the implementation/optimizations that go with MS Office.

    2. (((((

    Honestly, I prefer MS Office, but I can't use that under Linux (yet). So I'm forced to use (or try, at least) LibreOffice/Google Docs. As mentioned above, it doesn't always work out... but LO has definitely proven to be a great project.

    P.S. The "not using Wayland" thing is because until Mir showed up, nobody cared. As soon as Mir showed up, look how fast people cared (and how fast crap got done). Unfortunately, nobody started porting their DE to Wayland (or even de-X11-ing it) until Wayland had hit version 1.0 (despite there being several "stable" parts of the API ready before then). Don't blame the main Wayland devs, it really isn't their fault. It's mostly the community's fault in this specific case...

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    • #17
      Latest Linux News? Oh, LOL. Just LOL.

      Is it really "Latest Linux News"? I fail to see how some MS crap related to Linux. Not to mention OOXML is known for huge (about 6000 pages) and poorly written specs, totally screwed up. Up to degree where MS Office can't even parse simple examples created using MS specs. Should I mention such format should die by horrible death? OpenOffice document formats are far more sane in this regard. Though MS shown poor standards compliance in their office suite in this regard as well.

      But whatever, I fail to understand how this crap fits "Linux news". If someone wants good laugh on MS, Linux and so on, MS has released new Android based )) phone under Nokia brand. So, beyound your wildest imaginations, MS Linux has finally arrived in form of Android! Lol, wtf .

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
        Honestly, I prefer MS Office, but I can't use that under Linux (yet).
        I wouldn't recomment MS products for sure. These are fairly unreliable guys who would backstab at convenient moment. There was IE 5.0 for *nix. But once *nix-based faced strong competition from Windows, MS just stopped releasing new IE versions for *nix to backstab *nix systems during competition and put Windows into advantage. Are you sure you want to fall into well known pit for another time? Some people seems to have short memories for sure. Yes, I mean MSOffice would go away from you solely at MS discretion and you can't do anything about it.
        Last edited by 0xBADCODE; 06-25-2014, 11:50 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
          P.S. The "not using Wayland" thing is because until Mir showed up, nobody cared. As soon as Mir showed up, look how fast people cared (and how fast crap got done). Unfortunately, nobody started porting their DE to Wayland (or even de-X11-ing it) until Wayland had hit version 1.0 (despite there being several "stable" parts of the API ready before then). Don't blame the main Wayland devs, it really isn't their fault. It's mostly the community's fault in this specific case...
          just fixing your point here i agree with the rest of it(i don't love Ms Office tho), this a super common misconception that probably has been explained a 1000 times around but well here we go for the 1001.

          Mir is completely unrelated to wayland development speed now and in the past and since its announcement it hasn't fastened wayland adoption times at all, it just got more publicity, canonical just waited until wayland was stable enough to announce Mir and provide the sensation that canonical was pushing wayland forward nothing else(they specially waited for wayland to solve the really hard problems so they can just code easy parts without the heavy lift[kinda bited them back tho]).

          the first problem you have to understand is that wayland on itself is the very basic trivial part of the massive problem that implies replace a graphic server not the hardest part, first of all let mention the groundwork needed to make something like Mir or wayland even possible in theory:

          1.) kernel level massive rework in the KMS and GPU specific DRM backends for stuff like proper and future proof memory allocation+FD, render nodes, VM, GPU page handling, cheap page flipping, smarter vblank sync, DPMS, generic Input, multiple render targets, multiple render outputs, etc. (check logs in kernel cgit all the way to 3.0 kernel for GPU drivers), without this either wayland or Mir will be crazy talk and just this took years and is not 100% done(this here is really really hard, probably less than 100 devs in the whole planet can work at this level efficiently).

          2.) EGL / OpenGL ES has to get done because GLX was a massive everest size road block if you ever wanted to be taken seriously talking people into wayland or Mir, of course this included kernel rework, mesa huge rework, shader compilers backends rework, buffer handling rework, memory allocation rework, massive cleanups, Xorg huge rework,etc. probably close to half of all the massive kernel rework in 1

          3.) Generic X less input system was required since XInput was set number 1 most horrid piece of software ever written by the human race(prolly only second to XFont server) and it was absolutely unusable for wayland or mir in any shape, this included kernel rework(evdev), Xorg rework(was a massive code chop in several releases), etc. this one took a lot of time and thinking too

          4.) To have any hope of decent compatibility for legacy X apps millions of LoC, endless hours of cleanups, massive reworks in many subsystems, several aproaches had to be done inside Xorg for XWayland to even have a fighting chance and loooooot of work has been needed since then to get it to its current state and still is not at 100%

          5.) Massive mesa rework all the way from core mesa to backend specific shader compilers to integrate nicely all those previous changes, including nasty rewrites of shaders compiler logic (or waiting for the tool to be able to handle it like LLVM), add of new extensions like EGL_EXT_buffer_age or EGL_EXT_swap_buffers_with_damage, etc.

          6.) Graphic servers touch everything even stuff that you don't expect it like looots of CLI programs, specially in the case of a monster semi OS like X was and this is probably the biggest time consuming part, you have to remove millions and millions of LOC in several thousand apps to isolate/rework/optimize/improve all the X code to even be able to launch an app without X and dont get a nice SIGSEGV and from there you have to rethink and reimplement all this millions of LOC to use the new system/techniques/features because you now have the possiblity of doing things that were absolutely impossible in X, etc

          7.) Lastly, you now focus on the new graphic system design and polish the rough corners in 1-6

          now after all this work is when either Wayland or Mir can be barely seriously bringed as a discussion topic("coincidentaly" this is the time frame where Mir was announced, ofc the contribution from canonical to either previous point was an astonishing 0 LoC, you just have to love their PR department), so today i think we got around 80% of 1-5 and around 30% of 6 is done, so we can now have something to show and experiment with in 7, so as you see even if mark danced naked in an Apple WWDC and carved Wayland/Mir in Steve jobs chest with an scalpel while grabing steve balmer long lost hair step 1 to 6 won't move any faster but sure as hell will get an awful lot of publicity to either party(again you got to love canonical PR department), so if you never followed the development process and suddenly you get super bombarded with publicity you will probably will think your statement is true but in LoC measurable reality was just nil, Ofc this was helped for many irresponsible devs that ran to scream wayland full support for next version and coudn't deliver because the infrastructure wasn't there yet.

          bit of a long post but hope it helps to clarify some misconceptions

          Note: non native english speaker here so forgive any mistake
          Note: im not an Graphic stack DEV and i didnt took part in the dev process, so is possible i misplaced some info here and there, always crosscheck the respective project logs to be sure, i just tried my best in following the dev process because i found it fascinating so dont take this religiously
          Note: for more in deep info you have many rockstars here like keith, marek, bridgman, tom, jayden, arseri, etc. ask them and praise their really hard work

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          • #20
            Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
            ...
            That's the first time I've heard much of that, actually.

            I knew it required a lot of infrastructure change, I just figured many people were being lazy about it until a "competitor" showed up (Mir, though I've known for a LONG time that the two's development were not related in any way). Certainly, the major DEs weren't exactly doing their part to port anything over to Wayland, even after the publicity ramped up; not for a little while, at least. At least, that's the way I saw it.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
              Certainly, the major DEs weren't exactly doing their part to port anything over to Wayland, even after the publicity ramped up; not for a little while, at least. At least, that's the way I saw it.
              The major DEs were waiting for Wayland to have a stable API. Once the API was stable, Wayland porting sped up immediately. Again, this had absolutely nothing to do with Mir, and everything to do with waiting for a stable API before putting much work in. And in fact beforehand DEs had explicitly stated they didn't want to waste time on Wayland when the API was still changing. This was the plan for a long time before Mir was announced.

              The reason it seems that Mir had something to do with it is just timing: Mir was announced shortly before Wayland API stability was declared.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mark45 View Post
                Yes it's the case, I actually implemented the core part of .ods (ODF spreadsheets) in Qt5 as a library for Qt users to be able to read/write .ods files, and the documentation for ODF is about 1200 pages, otoh OOXML (I looked it up out of curiosity) is out of 4 parts and the 1st one is the biggest one and is 5000+ pages.
                I wasn't questioning what the number of pages in the spec is, but rather the claim that one would be out of their mind to implement support for a document format with near universal usage among office users.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
                  That's the first time I've heard much of that, actually.

                  I knew it required a lot of infrastructure change, I just figured many people were being lazy about it until a "competitor" showed up (Mir, though I've known for a LONG time that the two's development were not related in any way). Certainly, the major DEs weren't exactly doing their part to port anything over to Wayland, even after the publicity ramped up; not for a little while, at least. At least, that's the way I saw it.
                  Yes, the reason Mir announcement and the apparent Wayland development speed-up appeared at the same time is because lots of kernel and mesa developments bore their fruits at around that time.
                  But because kernel/mesa/X11 development is mostly invisible to the general user (and not in the scope of distro development), people did not see this common cause, and assumed that the causality link was between Mir appearance and Wayland development speed-up, when there actually was none (only correlation).

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by afeder View Post
                    I wasn't questioning what the number of pages in the spec is, but rather the claim that one would be out of their mind to implement support for a document format with near universal usage among office users.
                    Microsoft must have thought it crazy to support OOXML as well. After all, it took them until Office 2013 before even they could create documents conforming to the ISO/IEC 29500 Strict standard.

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                    • #25
                      Everybody please don't believe Microsoft.

                      Microsoft's file formats are their lockin for Microsoft Office.
                      It binds you to their products due to network effects. It's a business strategy to capture the market.

                      Due to competition Microsoft gives support for OOXML including the open source OOXML SDK.
                      The OOXML file formats got created to compete with ODF and impress the European Comission.
                      It was meant to be a half assed job and give the appearance of open file formats.
                      The files outputted from Microsoft Office 2007 - 2010 and other versions have their own variations and resemble some soft of XML based file format. The output file format of Microsoft Office is somewhat alike the OOXML ISO spec but not identical or compatible.

                      Now that LibreOffice and Apache OpenOffice ODF file formats are gaining in popularity Microsoft has to take more measures to lure developers away. Hence the SDK and other goodies.
                      If you want to know how the complete evolution of their strategy looks like. Take a look at Internet Explorer development.
                      Large period of stagnation where Microsoft tries to hold back the development of the web.
                      After other browsers start gaining market share Microsoft suddenly implements tons of interesting features and tries to win the users back.

                      Please don't fall for these tricks. Use ODF where you can and encourage other developers to improve and support ODF. Including ODF SDK's/toolkits/libraries.

                      http://incubator.apache.org/projects/odftoolkit.html

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                      • #26
                        I have put a request in bugzilla asking to install by default WebODF (an extension that uses HTML5 to display ODF files directly in Firefox) in the firefox windows version.

                        The best would be to make firefox the default browser of the .odt if there isn't any program already associated to that extension. This way, when someone sends for example an .odt archive to someone who only has installed Office 2007, he could open and see the document without any problem.

                        When I try to send to my partners an ODF document make in my Libreoffice I always have someone who tells me that his Office it isn't able to open it, and I have to send it again in .doc format. This way, we could help this to no happen so often, and would help to spread an open format like is ODF.

                        What do you think about the idea?

                        https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1030808

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                        • #27
                          Good, but what about if they expect to be able to edit them? That may confuse them even further.

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                          • #28
                            OT: Malwarebytes is suspicious of this site

                            this is probably a false alarm but when I logged in just now Malwarebytes popped up saying
                            Malicious website blocked: 77.222.142.204 if I wrote it down correctly.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jagoly View Post
                              Good, but what about if they expect to be able to edit them? That may confuse them even further.
                              The firefox addon only allows to view the document at the moment, but webodf is working in an online editor too:

                              http://www.webodf.org/demo/ci/webodf...caleditor.html

                              However, I thin that always is better to been able to only watch the document in a computer that can't do it that, rather than nothing.

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