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Matthew Garrett: How-To Drive Developers From OS X To Linux

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  • #31
    Linux is very much a consumer OS

    Originally posted by Marc Driftmeyer View Post
    ``

    Linux has never been a targeted Consumer OS Platform. To do so would require a unified set of Frameworks to develop said UI.
    Well as far as I know Android is running Linux and Steam is also embracing Linux with their SteamOS. Especially SteamOS may do something to the Linux consumer market if it takes off. Remember that with SteamOS, every consumer-electronics giant can make a console. If this happens, more games will be made for SteamOS/Linux. In other words if consumers get hands on SteamOS (which runs on top of debian), more programs and support for Linux will come.

    To me the future for Linux has never looked brighter!

    Comment


    • #32
      Just in time...

      ... for 2004. Or how to be 10years too late. The second half of the 2000s is when this should've been sorted, now it is way too late as the linux desktop is dead.

      No thanks to his former employer and their two-faced approach towards the linux desktop, and no thanks to Matthew himself with him wasting AMD money and resources with his RadeonHD slander (mostly, as not that much code of his went into the competing driver), and helping keep the catalyst driver as is.

      And yes, Chrome and Android have indeed swallowed that space, but Mr Garrett apparently missed the writing that was on the wall for 4-5 years, and he has failed to see todays linux desktop reality.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by ricequackers View Post
        I posted this comment on his blog earlier this morning but it's worth referring to here:



        I'd also add that in desktop land, the market has shifted towards the high end as it's mostly gamers, enthusiasts and users doing "workstation" stuff that buy or build desktops. Hence there are plenty of options for very high quality hardware at good prices and you're not stuck with what comes in the package as with a laptop. The aforementioned driver issues aren't nearly a problem on desktops as they use fairly standard hardware with standard configurations and mostly-standard firmwares. Still, anything GPU related sucks in comparison to desktop, which is why I dual-boot with Windows 8.1 when I want to game.
        I agree with the blog post I use both a Dell Latitude and a MBP I would never want to be forced to choose between the two they're both very different and both very good but most of the stuff you see in the store is just not very good and that's what most people choose from.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by libv View Post
          ... for 2004. Or how to be 10years too late. The second half of the 2000s is when this should've been sorted, now it is way too late as the linux desktop is dead.
          Eh... If the linux desktop is dead today, quite frankly it was never alive to begin with, and I must say I see things differently. The linux desktop is now having massive parts of it's infrastructure gutted and modernized, and now for the first time ever Linux is about to become a legitimate gaming platform through Valve, and things are becoming more standardized. 2015 should be the year of wayland and things are looking up for the linux desktop. That said unless something drastic happens we're still at a minimum a good 4-5 years off from "the year of the linux desktop" as all the infrastructural changes aside, if it's going to happen, it's going to be riding atop the wave of the SteamMachines

          Comment


          • #35
            Other way around

            I have it the other way around.

            I was working with windows at my previous job due to requirements (PCs owned by operator we worked at). At home I used linux for all my projects and development, usually just ubuntu to keep things simple, but I used Crux, Arch and other more "hardcore" distributions in the past and I like them too.

            When I came to work for my current employer they were initially set up as a "mac workplace". I got a slightly used macbook pro 2009 era (13" horrible 1200x800 resolution). I liked the chance to finally learn Mac OS X tho since I never had one before.

            The thing is horrible. Slow slow IO caused by the OS/scheduler bugs they have, horrible-non-existing package management for anything which needs to install global libraries (see uninstalling things like postgresql in Mac OS X!!), multitudes of half-assed OSS repositories like homebrew which usually screw things up etc.

            Don't even get me started on working with a Mac using PC keyboard.

            I hate the damn thing, even the UI is horrible. IMHO Ubuntu is already ahead with integrated calendar, proper launcher app etc. But that's just me I guess. The only reason I like the fact that I have a Mac now is that I can release my stuff for iPhones/iPads too.

            One thing I noticed tho, coming from Europe originally is that US/Canada has this "iCrap" fever. 90% of people have an iPhone and if they own a tablet it's an iPad. If they own a computer it's a MacBook. When questioned why, they usually don't really have a proper reason tho. I have a co-worker, really bright guy who buys all things Apple only and spends $100+ monthly on apps which are usually available free for other platforms, but he never gives a reasonable answer as to why. It's simply great marketing, that's all.
            Last edited by Almindor; 05-19-2014, 12:41 PM.

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            • #36
              It's annoying that so many people spread their opinion as fact!

              I don't find OS X to be "polished" at all. Unfortunately, I have to work with OS X quite a bit as a dev platform (to develop iOS apps), and it's always a pain in the ass. The default terminal app is awful, the Finder is the worst file manager ever made, and updating software is a patchwork job: like with Windows, only officially supported Apple software gets updated from Apple (and even there, some software is updated separate via the App Store). It's also weird for me to hear that people "love" iTunes: it's an OK music player, but far from perfect. I guess the only reason you might need it is if you bought a lot of DRM music off iTunes and are now locked into it. "Clever" trick, Apple. Nice.

              As a developer, desktop Linux is a dream come true, a dream I've been having for many years. Some people complain about "polish" and fragmentation, but honestly all the major desktop environments do the job, and do it well enough: whether its GNOME, KDE, Xfce (my favorite) or others, you're in good hands. Better hands, in my opinion, than the frustrating OS X desktop. You have a window system, an application launcher, good terminals, world-class dev tools, and the major standard web browsers. Is that really not good enough for you?

              You just want to make sure that you have hardware that is properly supported by your OS: indeed, when it's not supported, it's hell. That's why you do research before you buy, as usual. Or why not buy a nice machine from system76 or another company with a Linux desktop pre-installed?

              There are some good points made here about multi-touch/gesture. I guess that's a gap that needs to be filled. I haven't suffered from it *personally*.

              Mac users aren't avoiding the switch to Linux because it's not good enough. They are avoiding the switch because they don't want to change their habits. I understand that reason, but it quite a different one! Anyway, usability aside, you should be switching to Linux because you value freedom and want to contribute to it. So stop being lazy and change your habits today! It's really not that hard.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Marc Driftmeyer View Post
                ``A combination of improved desktop polish and spending effort on optimising developer workflows would stand a real chance of luring these developers away from OS X with the promise that they'd spend less time fighting web browsers, leaving them more time to get on with development. It would also help differentiate Linux from proprietary alternatives - Apple and Microsoft may spend significant amounts of effort on improving developer tooling, but they're mostly doing so for developers who are targeting their platforms. A desktop environment that made it easier to perform generic development would be a unique selling point."

                And in 10 more years, OS X will still be out in front for UNIX based OS platforms, more rich environment of frameworks, expanding its dominance via iOS and OS X, and Linux will still be raving about having a dozen DE that are free, but constantly breaking between upgrades.

                Face it. You've received tens of billions in developing Linux for Server Markets and consumers aren't dying to brag about the most uptime, ability to scale their LAMP set ups, etc.

                Linux has never been a targeted Consumer OS Platform. To do so would require a unified set of Frameworks to develop said UI.
                Even todays Linux beats OS X on many levels - OpenGL performance, CPU performance and flexibility. It seems you forget Android is using Linux kernel, so ios dominance is only in some peoples dreams. Linux offers much more for free than Apple ever will. Linux DE's needs some polish, but overall they're more powerful than OS X. What's the most important, OS X market share is very low. It always aimed at consumers market, but it failed. Linux is much younger player here.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by emblemparade View Post
                  It's annoying that so many people spread their opinion as fact!

                  I don't find OS X to be "polished" at all. Unfortunately, I have to work with OS X quite a bit as a dev platform (to develop iOS apps), and it's always a pain in the ass. The default terminal app is awful, the Finder is the worst file manager ever made, and updating software is a patchwork job: like with Windows, only officially supported Apple software gets updated from Apple (and even there, some software is updated separate via the App Store). It's also weird for me to hear that people "love" iTunes: it's an OK music player, but far from perfect. I guess the only reason you might need it is if you bought a lot of DRM music off iTunes and are now locked into it. "Clever" trick, Apple. Nice.

                  As a developer, desktop Linux is a dream come true, a dream I've been having for many years. Some people complain about "polish" and fragmentation, but honestly all the major desktop environments do the job, and do it well enough: whether its GNOME, KDE, Xfce (my favorite) or others, you're in good hands. Better hands, in my opinion, than the frustrating OS X desktop. You have a window system, an application launcher, good terminals, world-class dev tools, and the major standard web browsers. Is that really not good enough for you?

                  You just want to make sure that you have hardware that is properly supported by your OS: indeed, when it's not supported, it's hell. That's why you do research before you buy, as usual. Or why not buy a nice machine from system76 or another company with a Linux desktop pre-installed?

                  There are some good points made here about multi-touch/gesture. I guess that's a gap that needs to be filled. I haven't suffered from it *personally*.

                  Mac users aren't avoiding the switch to Linux because it's not good enough. They are avoiding the switch because they don't want to change their habits. I understand that reason, but it quite a different one! Anyway, usability aside, you should be switching to Linux because you value freedom and want to contribute to it. So stop being lazy and change your habits today! It's really not that hard.
                  I'm a Mac user and Linux user I can't switch completely because the SW infrastructure isn't there in Linux. Until such time as all the software I need is available in Linux I will always have a Mac or two, then there is the problem of me planing for my replacement is he/she going to be formally trained in Linux or OS X? The correct answer is OS X the money is still there and the education is still there, there is no compelling reason to try to shift the shop away from Mac based no matter how much the internet and I wish the latter.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                    One thing Matthew also seems to blow right by without acknowledging is that the documentation offered by Apple and MS and for them is usually magnitudes better than it is for Linux resources.
                    Not really. I'm talking about people who are targetting Linux already, they're just doing so from OS X. They're mostly using the same tools that they'd be using on Linux.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
                      Eh... If the linux desktop is dead today, quite frankly it was never alive to begin with, and I must say I see things differently. The linux desktop is now having massive parts of it's infrastructure gutted and modernized, and now for the first time ever Linux is about to become a legitimate gaming platform through Valve, and things are becoming more standardized. 2015 should be the year of wayland and things are looking up for the linux desktop. That said unless something drastic happens we're still at a minimum a good 4-5 years off from "the year of the linux desktop" as all the infrastructural changes aside, if it's going to happen, it's going to be riding atop the wave of the SteamMachines
                      Steammachines are not the desktop. They are another use of linux, which, admittedly, probably uses more of the userspace than either chrome or android, but it's not a standard desktop installation.

                      And yes, the desktop never really happened, because everyone was too busy gutting it _all_ _the_ _time_.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by libv View Post
                        Steammachines are not the desktop. They are another use of linux, which, admittedly, probably uses more of the userspace than either chrome or android, but it's not a standard desktop installation.

                        And yes, the desktop never really happened, because everyone was too busy gutting it _all_ _the_ _time_.
                        KDE isn't gutting anything. Hell, even KDE4 wasn't gutting, it was just piling on a bunch of broken shit on top of something that already barely worked. But 5 years later it is pretty good, and kde5 is just an iterative improvement - making it pretty, etc, without radically changing the paradigm.

                        I guess we have to hope Gnome doesn't try a Gnome2->3 again, but Mate exists to keep Gnome2 alive. Which is why free software is great, because if you like some workflow more likely than not you will never have to abandon it, whereas on Windows / OSX whatever direction MS / Apple want to push the industry in they will stick down your throat, either through new releases or ending support for the version you like.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by doom_Oo7 View Post
                          Which is called Qt.
                          KDE is the example of that and it quite frankly is no where close to being in Cocoa world of robust frameworks.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Marc Driftmeyer View Post
                            KDE is the example of that and it quite frankly is no where close to being in Cocoa world of robust frameworks.
                            well that is taking things a bit too far, is true frameworks mostly works all the time(IOKit and foundations always include surprises between OS X releases or even updates) but frameworks are highly counter-intuitive and global library dependencies(especially with bundles) can be a massive pain in the ass even if you let XCode manage everything and OS X in general lacks a lot in the crypto area.

                            In the case of Linux you got other equally serious problem which is you have too many choices and options to develop but is completely intuitive and there are extraordinary ways to handle dependencies smartly without duplicate the same library 100 times.

                            in the great scheme of things Qt generally does a goob job helping you dealing with this sort of problems, except for multimedia where things tend to get real hard since in Mac almost always force you to use objective-c++ or in mobile(i freaking hate ARM GPU drivers) to deal with a bazillion of driver bugs and workarounds(Qt5.3 improve a lot in this area for consumer stuff but for pro operations not so much)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Marc Driftmeyer View Post

                              And in 10 more years, OS X will still be out in front for UNIX based OS platforms, more rich environment of frameworks, expanding its dominance via iOS and OS X, and Linux will still be raving about having a dozen DE that are free, but constantly breaking between upgrades.
                              Yep! I probably spent a good ten years trying to run Linux as a desktop OS, since well before Fedora came out, and have to say my switch to Mac OS as my primary OS was nirvana. The differences where stark and I didn't have to be on the OS upgrade breaks everything treadmill. I could and do keep my MBP current with a minimal of hassle. That usually means an Apple supplied OS upgrade every one to two years. Contrast that with Linux when a new distro upgrade implies spending months to get the platform stable again.

                              Face it. You've received tens of billions in developing Linux for Server Markets and consumers aren't dying to brag about the most uptime, ability to scale their LAMP set ups, etc.
                              And the question is why would consumers want to brag about uptime. I really don't think Linux developer have a clue about consumer needs nor a care really. That isn't bad of course as Linux is excellent in many professional applications.
                              Linux has never been a targeted Consumer OS Platform. To do so would require a unified set of Frameworks to develop said UI.
                              And a huge mind set change. However what this article seems to imply and I kinda have to agree with, is that Mac OS is an excellent developer platform. In some cases developer preferring it even when targeting Linux. This really goes to show you just how screwed up some Linux developer are when they resists the future.

                              It sort of reminds me of UNIX Gurus of the past complaining about HTML E-Mail and other improvements. It is like get with the program guys, the sixties passed you by a long time ago. This has been brought up because I once had a long discussion on the net with one of these Gurus about the nature of E-Mail. Apparently some of these guys never heard about evolution.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                " And in 10 more years, OS X will still be out in front for UNIX based OS platforms, more rich environment of frameworks, expanding its dominance via iOS and OS X, and Linux will still be raving about having a dozen DE that are free, but constantly breaking between upgrades."


                                I have to agree, Linux is essentially a niche operating system on the desktop for developers who need
                                extreme flexibility in customizing their development environment. Just this morning, I discovered that
                                my Sandy Bridge running SL 6.5 with Gnome 2 was burning 25 watts after a resume from suspend, and I had
                                to hibernate and then resume from that to get everything back to normal. Then, after I watched a clip
                                on firefox, I found out that pulseaudio wouldn't quit, and I was back up to 20 watts. Kill pulseaudio?
                                Ever see the movie, "Kill Bill?" You can bury it in a coffin and it figures out how to get out.

                                I could never use this machine for presentations on the road with behavior like that. I'm probably
                                going to have to get a macbook- battery glued in and all - just so that I can function in the business
                                world. It's too bad that there aren't enough developers out there with time on their hands to fix
                                stuff like this. It's not that we're a dying breed, there just weren't enough of us to begin with.

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