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AnthraX Linux Kernels Remain Closed Source

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  • Originally posted by brosis View Post
    That's a bad advice, a good way for everyone to stay clueless to different degrees.
    maybe, maybe not... Here, let me rephrase it then;

    "Next time, refrain from opening your mouth, if you don't actually have a clue as to what you are talking about, rather than making factual claims that are entirely wrong"... is that better?

    there is nothing wrong with people asking questions, or for verification, stating opinions, etc (in fact, being inquisitive should never be discouraged) ... but when you start speaking from a place of authority, yet are (obviously) ignorant of basic knowledge on the subject - it's usually not a smart thing to start making claims that aren't true.. (and easily disprovable by anyone who has _actually_ looked at kernel code, driver code <both gpl and non-gpl>, etc)..
    Last edited by ninez; 01-04-2014, 11:18 AM.

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    • Originally posted by ninez View Post
      maybe, maybe not... Here, let me rephrase it then;

      "Next time, refrain from opening your mouth, if you don't actually have a clue as to what you are talking about, rather than making factual claims that are entirely wrong"... is that better?

      there is nothing wrong with people asking questions, or for verification, stating opinions, etc (in fact, being inquisitive should never be discouraged) ... but when you start speaking from a place of authority, yet are (obviously) ignorant of basic knowledge on the subject - it's usually not a smart thing to start making claims that aren't true.. (and easily disprovable by anyone who has _actually_ looked at kernel code, driver code <both gpl and non-gpl>, etc)..
      sure, but sometimes people do mistakes. you cannot always know what you are missing. so at least give people a chance to understand your critic and arguments before throwing such a sentence against their head. if people still fail after several ping pongs of arguments than you may be able to judge like that. but talking like that such earlier will only harden peoples mindes and kills any discussion before it even started. and no one will be able to learn anything from that.

      i know it is not always easy to hold back yourself as i not rarly fail myself.

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      • Originally posted by ninez View Post
        A fine example was DMA-BUF - nvidia begged for kernel devs to use EXPORT_SYMBOL
        Yes it was, nice that you brought it up. Next time read the mailing list linked in the article you used as an example:
        https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/1/18/207
        https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/1/18/142
        Even at one of the articles you linked:
        http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTIwNDI
        Also I'd note if you are trying to do this for the purpose of combining it with proprietary code then you are still in my view as a (and the view of many other) rights holder to the kernel likely to be in breach of the GPL requirements for a derivative work. You may consider that formal notification of my viewpoint. Your corporate legal team can explain to you why the fact you are now aware of my view is important to them.
        Also please tell me where does the kernel license talk about "GPL symbols" ? https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/COPYING
        Next time, refrain from opening your mouth, if you don't actually have a clue as to what you are talking about.
        ...

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        • I never install closed kernels even if they are half faster, who knows what "secret" code they include.

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          • Originally posted by TAXI View Post
            Yes it was, nice that you brought it up. Next time read the mailing list linked in the article you used as an example:
            https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/1/18/207
            https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/1/18/142
            Even at one of the articles you linked:
            http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTIwNDI
            I did read them, thank you very much. EXPORT_SYMBOL (and thus closed-drivers) do(es) not have access to that which EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL (gpl-compatible drivers) do(es) - this isn't hard to understand, bud. - the only bit in there of possible interest/dispute is Arnold's comment on EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL just being more explicit ~ but that isn't even really true / an arguable perspective - since as a 'mechanism' EXPORT_SYMBOL / EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL provide different access to a given driver. ie: binary drivers get no access to EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL symbols (symbols only available gpl'd drivers. ie: gpl only symbols, which don't exist right?)...

            Originally posted by TAXI View Post
            Also please tell me where does the kernel license talk about "GPL symbols" ? https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/COPYING
            ...
            It's not - it's in the linux kernel's *source code* ~ When did i make any claim that the GPLv2 explicitly mentions EXPORT_SYMBOL or EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL??? (and why would i look there, instead of looking at the code itself???) ... maybe you are under some false delusion that the GPLv2 contains info on all code in the kernel, all headers, etc? lulz...

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            • Originally posted by brosis View Post
              One may charge for access to binary, and charge for access to code (as right to recieve code is guaranteed for those who recieve binary).
              The charge for source code however may not be higher than that for code, and he may not impose any NDAs/Agreements to prevent those who purchased the binary /and source, to distribute them for any fee. And when this happens, then these persons can demand source from upstream, under very same conditions. But they are not obligated to recieve any binaries from him directly. See GPL faq.
              No, don't read the GPL FAQ, read the GPL itself: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.html (since the kernel is version 2)
              3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

              a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
              b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
              c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

              The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.

              If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code.
              [Bold added.]

              In other words, in an commercial distribution the GPL requires the distributor to either supply the source with the binary (making the source available for download from the same place of the binary counts; this does not require supplying the source code to anyone other than a recipient), or to provide the source code to any third party (not necessarily the "purchaser") for a charge of no more than what it costs them to supply the code.

              And not a reply to this post, but the GPLv2 (i.e. the relevant licence) does not make any distinction about distributions within an organisation versus public distribution. However, with internal distribution someone could try to argue (possibly successfully) that the organisation is the licensee rather than the individuals, and therefore there is no distribution occurring. However, if the individuals are using it for their own personal use that cannot apply.

              In this specific instance, I find it very hard to believe that the "customers" are not using the kernel for their own personal use, and therefore I would suggest that it is a public distribution. And if it is a public distribution, then the fact that they are refusing to provide the source to some of their "customers", or are charging more than the cost of providing them with it, is definitely a licence violation; and the fact that they will not provide source code to other individuals is extremely likely also a licence violation.

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              • Very easy workaround: he can only distribute the source on platinum-plated five-layer bluray disks. Tada, that takes care of the physical cost

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                • Originally posted by curaga View Post
                  Very easy workaround: he can only distribute the source on platinum-plated five-layer bluray disks. Tada, that takes care of the physical cost
                  Then it better arrive on platinum-plated five-layer bluray disks, and it better fill it. Otherwise, I call BS.

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                  • Wanted to add a little but on what PreferLinux just said,

                    PreferLinux pretty much got the last couple 'loopholes' covered clearly, so I encourage any believers in the 'loopholes' to read his recent post.

                    Regarding the 'forumn is an organization' loophole...
                    You have to consider how the courts define legal entities, and they don't consider how something is described rhetorically. They have a standard defined through case law to deal with these situations, as they are actually quite common in loads of cases. If the definition of an entity is in dispute, they always use the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck' standard.

                    You would need to 'walk like' other legal 'persons' to justify internal use, and a forum isn't a 501c or corporation. The definition also goes both ways, meaning you must also 'quack like'. It's also clear that a forum doesn't 'quack like' one of legal 'persons'. In established case law, affiliation alone doesn't result in personhood, and neither would only walking. The real emphasis is always on the 'quack', and this example 'quacks' like public distribution.

                    Regarding the 'not-distributed, and yet still mysteriously available', example....
                    This is also a common situation in civil case law, as intent is often a MAJOR aspect of liability. Although even negligence alone is usually enough, assuming a reasonable party would not have done such actions. A reasonable party would take measures to ensure the 'internal' binaries were not publicly available. Although it would never get this far since the group would never get a judge to agree with it's initial personhood premise.

                    This is only my opinion, and IMNAL....But I do have some in the close family, and often ask about these type of scenarios. Also remember contract law isn't established by a legislation, whether someone violates would be up to the judge.

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                    • @PreferLinux: pretty much yes, thank you!

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