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  • #11
    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
    If you are going to develop proprietary software for linux then the only good option you have is to compile static libraries for it.
    Sure, but that isn't what the majority of commercial game developers are doing. Steam being one of the bigger and more important pieces of gaming software, is not. That means the already razor-thin market share that Desktop Linux has, is divided even further.

    Originally posted by duby229 View Post
    Steam does in fact run on RHEL just fine, you just have to use the Steam Runtime, which is all the libraries steam needs compiled into a static environment. There is nothing wrong with foing this if it is whats required to make your application function across distro's.
    Ok, sure, that works for geeks, but since we're talking about mass market adoption here, that adds a lot of complexity. (Also isn't the Steam runtime an experimental unsupported community effort, rather than part of the official product from Valve?) Will the end user be responsible for determining if they have a compliant disto, and if not, for finding and installing this runtime kit? Tech support will of course have to be well versed in which distros require it and which don't, and also for the installation steps required for the relevant distros. If nothing else, all this adds uncertainty and risk, and businesses hate uncertainty and risk.

    What the software vendors ought to do, is have some kind of unified universal installer. It detects your distro and version and installs the appropriate package. And if your distro/version is not on a white list, it installs the run-time kit for you.

    Here's the $billion dollar question: Why isn't there some foundation or organization who's mission is to come up with materials and guidance for helping developers port to Linux? It seems like each developer is required to navigate this distro/version/packaging/library/driver maze with all its technical snafus and pitfalls on their own, with little to no Linux "industry" guidance. There ought to be published guidance for best practices of commercial software development/packaging/installation on Linux, from a vendor neutral and distro neutral perspective.
    Last edited by torsionbar28; 12-23-2013, 03:27 PM.

    Comment


    • #12
      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      Different packaging methods across distros. .deb vs. .rpm vs. others. Supporting multiple packaging methods is additional work above and beyond what's required for OSX or Windows.
      Which can be avoided by using a distro independent installer solution such as MojoSetup or Bitrock. Personally, I think no commercial proprietary software should ever touch the package manager, as it is a solution which really does not suit applications that do not have their source code available. Further, distribution services such as Steam or Desura go even further at making this hardly an issue for anyone using them.

      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      You've got different GUI environments, Gnome 2.x, Gnome 3.x, KDE, Cinnamon, Enlightenment, Xfce, etc. You've got to make sure your package will work across all these different desktop environments. Either that or create distro-specific builds that target the default desktop. Yet again, this is lots more work than developing for OSX or Windows.
      There are many elements of software abstraction (GTK, QT, SDL) that make it so no one has to even touch the base desktop environment. It is not like it was eighteen years ago when it was common to write software that communicated directly to X. You will find this on both Windows and OS X as well; no one should ever have to write their applications to any specific desktop implementation, as there are additional layers that do all of the heavy lifting for you already.

      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      Open vs. Closed source drivers. While the AMD driver has made huge strides recently due to cooperation from AMD, the open source drivers for all popular mid and high end gaming graphics cards do not perform nearly as well as their closed source counterparts. Many distros do not include the closed source drivers by default. The user has to fetch and install them on his own. This is a tech support nightmare when you've got people calling in, or leaving negative product reviews online because "the game plays like crap on Linux but works fine on Windows". Are you really going to train your tech support people on how to install proprietary graphics drivers on all the popular Linux distros? Once again, a bit pain in the ass as compared to developing for OSX or Windows.
      This is mostly a problem that the graphics vendors themselves need to solve, although I personally think that the best solution would be for them to all to focus on free in-kernel drivers as that would result in the greatest level of system integration and out of the box support. There is a reason that, while I do loose some frames in games, I always use free radeon drivers, and that is proper system integration. And I am a quite enthusiastic gamer at that.

      And let us not forget how horrible the graphics layer on OS X has been for game developers. They are hardly a shining light either.

      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      You'll soon have the issue of different GUI compositors, X.org vs. Wayland vs. Mir. Who knows what untold development and support nightmares will come from trying to support three different compositors?
      Again, this should largely be dealt with by software abstraction. There are indeed some legitimate reasons for concern over fragmentation at such a low level of the system, but this will mostly be a problem for graphics vendors and not application and game developers themselves.

      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      Lastly you have the life span of a Linux distro. Most Microsoft and Apple operating systems have many years of vendor support. XP was supported for what, 12 years? Most Linux distros are only supported for 1 year or so. That means the game you developed for one distro will likely not work a year from now, when the next version of that distro gets released. Do you really expect developers to recompile and redistribute their games every year, for all the distro version upgrades? That's insanity. No developer would agree to that. The only exceptions to this are RHEL, SuSE, and Ubuntu LTR. Those are supported for many years, just as commercial operating systems from Microsoft and Apple are. But that's not what most Linux users are running, so game developers don't target those OS's. For example, I'm a RHEL user, and I cannot use Valve Steam. It flat out will not run on RHEL6, period.
      This has not been the case for me. I have ran of good swath of native Linux games from the late '90s on modern computers with a minimal amount of effort. Things are not nearly a volatile as you like to make out, and static libraries are always an option here to make the application be able to run in an environment independent of the underlying distro.

      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      I'm sure there are more, this is all I can think of off the top of my head. I don't blame commercial developers one bit for avoiding Linux like the plague. The fragmentation of our ecosystem is the #1 reason preventing its widespread adoption on the desktop.
      It is far from the #1 reason. The greatest reason is still the lack of OEM and vendor support.

      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      Sure, but that isn't what the majority of commercial game developers are doing. Steam being one of the bigger and more important pieces of gaming software, is not. That means the already razor-thin market share that Desktop Linux has, is divided even further.
      I do not know where you get your information from, but having a set of static libraries has been a commonly observed standard for the release and distribution of both commercial and gaming software since the days of Loki Software over thirteen years ago. I do not know much about Steam, as I do not use it, but I do own many games from other sources that are also on Steam, and they all operate in exactly this way.

      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      Here's the $billion dollar question: Why isn't there some foundation or organization who's mission is to come up with materials and guidance for helping developers port to Linux? It seems like each developer is required to navigate this distro/version/packaging/library/driver maze with all its technical snafus and pitfalls on their own, with little to no Linux "industry" guidance. There ought to be published guidance for best practices of commercial software development/packaging/installation on Linux, from a vendor neutral and distro neutral perspective.
      There are groups which try and build frameworks to allow better collaboration between Linux ecosystem projects - freedesktop.org for example. Further, there are things like the Linux Standard Base that do try create a unified standard Linux implementation, although the success of that particular instance is questionable.

      Regardless, I can not help but feel that most of the solutions to the problems you are pointing to already exist and have existed for awhile now.
      Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 12-23-2013, 04:09 PM.

      Comment


      • #13
        Originally posted by ACiD View Post
        PC gaming is the only reason Windows will keep dominating home desktops. Unfortunately linux is just too fragmented for any developer to even consider commercially.
        And the relatively poor graphics performance (compared to Windows) ... Maybe Wayland helps with that. Better graphics drivers and bleeding edge hardware support probably also helps.

        I don't think the fragmented nature of distributions has to be harmful. The industry could just pick one distribution and stick with that. If you want to run a different distribution and the game doesn't work, that's your problem.

        Comment


        • #14
          Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
          That's a bunch of nonsense. You're confusing two separate issues. One is the willingness of commercial software developers to develop and sell for Linux, and the other separate issue is OS bundling at the OEM level. Don't confuse them.

          Have you considered that one *reason* the OEM's don't bundle Linux is because there's a lack of commercial software and tier-1 games as compared to Windows? If you build it, they will come. But first you've got to convince developers to build it. Developing and supporting commercial software for Linux is a pain in the ass. I know.

          Let me break it down for you:

          1. Different packaging methods across distros. .deb vs. .rpm vs. others. Supporting multiple packaging methods is additional work above and beyond what's required for OSX or Windows.

          2. Different shared library versions. A .rpm that's made for Fedora will frequently not work on RHEL or CentOS. A .deb that's for Ubuntu will frequently not work on Debian. So you've either got to compile against different libraries to create distro-specific packages, or you've got to constantly evaluate the libraries across all current distros and try and work out the lowest common denominator. This is a lot more work than what's required for OSX or Windows.

          3. You've got different GUI environments, Gnome 2.x, Gnome 3.x, KDE, Cinnamon, Enlightenment, Xfce, etc. You've got to make sure your package will work across all these different desktop environments. Either that or create distro-specific builds that target the default desktop. Yet again, this is lots more work than developing for OSX or Windows.

          4. Open vs. Closed source drivers. While the AMD driver has made huge strides recently due to cooperation from AMD, the open source drivers for all popular mid and high end gaming graphics cards do not perform nearly as well as their closed source counterparts. Many distros do not include the closed source drivers by default. The user has to fetch and install them on his own. This is a tech support nightmare when you've got people calling in, or leaving negative product reviews online because "the game plays like crap on Linux but works fine on Windows". Are you really going to train your tech support people on how to install proprietary graphics drivers on all the popular Linux distros? Once again, a bit pain in the ass as compared to developing for OSX or Windows.

          5. You'll soon have the issue of different GUI compositors, X.org vs. Wayland vs. Mir. Who knows what untold development and support nightmares will come from trying to support three different compositors?

          6. Lastly you have the life span of a Linux distro. Most Microsoft and Apple operating systems have many years of vendor support. XP was supported for what, 12 years? Most Linux distros are only supported for 1 year or so. That means the game you developed for one distro will likely not work a year from now, when the next version of that distro gets released. Do you really expect developers to recompile and redistribute their games every year, for all the distro version upgrades? That's insanity. No developer would agree to that. The only exceptions to this are RHEL, SuSE, and Ubuntu LTR. Those are supported for many years, just as commercial operating systems from Microsoft and Apple are. But that's not what most Linux users are running, so game developers don't target those OS's. For example, I'm a RHEL user, and I cannot use Valve Steam. It flat out will not run on RHEL6, period.

          I'm sure there are more, this is all I can think of off the top of my head. I don't blame commercial developers one bit for avoiding Linux like the plague. The fragmentation of our ecosystem is the #1 reason preventing its widespread adoption on the desktop.
          I totally agree with you|

          of course things have changed over the last few years about Linux,but in many cases it's not a plug&play OS,yet;
          I think about the SSD support,listening to mp3s,running proprietary video drivers (i.e. in Fedora you have to disable Nouveau first,which is not dead easy for a beginner),Nvidia Optimus technology is still far to be optimal on a laptop etc...
          hope things get better in a near future....
          being a free OS is not enough to make it worldwide adopted

          Comment


          • #15
            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            That's a bunch of nonsense. You're confusing two separate issues. One is the willingness of commercial software developers to develop and sell for Linux,
            This is called market share, its a factor for lazy developers who don't want to risk exporing new technologies and instead get a few bucks revenue via "tried-and-true" clone.
            Or big publishers. They do that. But publishers have this huge organ - financial one. They demand calculable revenue at stuff, so they pretty much have no choice but stick to the clich?.

            So, get a big marketshare and lure more developers? Lets see your next "nonsense", Highness:

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            and the other separate issue is OS bundling at the OEM level. Don't confuse them.
            and this is how you get marketshare. You talk to OEMs and make NDA agreements.
            90% of the machines with windumbs preinstalled come through direct agreements between Intel and AMD. Before, it used to be 100%.
            Large OEM preinstallations = large marketshare = many developers = lots of software = revenue and monopoly = huge income = money for next bribe agreement.

            These two are part of the one. You try to seperate head from body - you don't get whole picture, but "a bunch of nonsense".

            I have pretty much answered the rest.

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            I know.
            I don't think so. Sorry.
            You also mean proprietary, not commercial.

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            Let me break it down for you:
            1. Different packaging methods across distros. .deb vs. .rpm vs. others. Supporting multiple packaging methods is additional work above and beyond what's required for OSX or Windows.
            2. Different shared library versions. A .rpm that's made for Fedora will frequently not work on RHEL or CentOS. A .deb that's for Ubuntu will frequently not work on Debian. So you've either got to compile against different libraries to create distro-specific packages, or you've got to constantly evaluate the libraries across all current distros and try and work out the lowest common denominator. This is a lot more work than what's required for OSX or Windows.
            Lolso. And in windows you have MSI, ZIP, RAR, EXE, PIF, 7Z. I guess its so hard to support them...
            No, why otherwise would you post a bunch of compression methods?

            Also, somehow teamviewer disagrees with you, go look at their download section of the website.
            I mention a few things to you
            LD_PRELOAD, static compilation, tar.gz.


            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            So you've either got to compile against different libraries to create distro-specific packages, or you've got to constantly evaluate the libraries across all current distros and try and work out the lowest common denominator. This is a lot more work than what's required for OSX or Windows.
            No shit, Sherlock, its so bad Linux libraries are not trashed with stuff like WinSxS, so that proprietary crap could sit back and cash cow the money doing nothing.
            But still, some how it manages to support multitude of library versions and only glibc version is of somehow importance.
            So bad with "lowest common denominators", so hard to take current stable version.

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            3. You've got different GUI environments, Gnome 2.x, Gnome 3.x, KDE, Cinnamon, Enlightenment, Xfce, etc. You've got to make sure your package will work across all these different desktop environments. Either that or create distro-specific builds that target the default desktop. Yet again, this is lots more work than developing for OSX or Windows.
            Why? You build desktop environiment plugin? Or are you too lazy to read XDG standards?
            You see, windows also has GDI, Aero, Metro, whatever crap. Sooo hard.
            But I fail to see what these have to do with toolkits, which are the only things required to display stuff on screen? Oh well.

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            4. Open vs. Closed source drivers. While the AMD driver has made huge strides recently due to cooperation from AMD, the open source drivers for all popular mid and high end gaming graphics cards do not perform nearly as well as their closed source counterparts. Many distros do not include the closed source drivers by default. The user has to fetch and install them on his own. This is a tech support nightmare when you've got people calling in, or leaving negative product reviews online because "the game plays like crap on Linux but works fine on Windows". Are you really going to train your tech support people on how to install proprietary graphics drivers on all the popular Linux distros? Once again, a bit pain in the ass as compared to developing for OSX or Windows.
            Hehe, OSX drivers are much worser than that of Linux.
            Also, so many drivers thing - have windows users finally stopped yelling "AMD you no give us good driver?".
            Also, 4 years ago, open AMD drivers produced 2 fps in OpenGL 2. Now they produce 100% and varying 60-100% with everything "upstairs".
            Many distros do not include closed drivers, because they were FUDed that they can't distrubute them due to drivers EULA. Does windows also ship with proprietary OEM drivers? No, it does the same thing - fetches them from the net.
            Neverless, do the tech support people help install windows drivers? I don't think so. They just tell to install the driver.
            Why do you throw stuff together in a top is a mistery for me. Do you plan to FUD me?

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            5. You'll soon have the issue of different GUI compositors, X.org vs. Wayland vs. Mir. Who knows what untold development and support nightmares will come from trying to support three different compositors?
            You are right. Once I installed Compiz instead of XFCE, I had to recompile my whole desktop.
            Help, I die from laugh!

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            6. Lastly you have the life span of a Linux distro. Most Microsoft and Apple operating systems have many years of vendor support. XP was supported for what, 12 years? Most Linux distros are only supported for 1 year or so.
            Erh... have you check how much RedHat is supported? Because the "life span" you mean is meant only for business customers, that run proprietary stuff and don't want to change things.
            Actually, this behavior is currently seen as inefficient and developers work directly with upstream, because it cuts costs more than so called "stable releases" or "vendor support".

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            That means the game you developed for one distro will likely not work a year from now, when the next version of that distro gets released. Do you really expect developers to recompile and redistribute their games every year, for all the distro version upgrades? That's insanity. No developer would agree to that.
            I am pretty sure package building is fully automatic with nearly all package managers.
            This, and the fact that all developers constantly release newer updated verions of the software with support for newer userspace (like these "added xx support", "improved xxx support" thingies).
            Software is a process.

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            The only exceptions to this are RHEL, SuSE, and Ubuntu LTR. Those are supported for many years, just as commercial operating systems from Microsoft and Apple are. But that's not what most Linux users are running, so game developers don't target those OS's. For example, I'm a RHEL user, and I cannot use Valve Steam. It flat out will not run on RHEL6, period.
            RHEL7 will fix the issue. Your outdated business distro uses outdated glibc. If Valve thinks that RHEL6 marketshare for Steam is higher than that of Ubuntu, it would immediately recompile for your outdated system.
            Its like windows 95 "business" users demanding Steam.

            Proprietary software sucks, you know?

            Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
            I'm sure there are more, this is all I can think of off the top of my head. I don't blame commercial developers one bit for avoiding Linux like the plague. The fragmentation of our ecosystem is the #1 reason preventing its widespread adoption on the desktop.
            Yay, windows fragmentation over versions indeed preventing windows widespread.
            May be Valve is doing the right thing by force-ignoring your cries about outdated version support, eh? They reduce fragmenation
            Nice talking to you, do come back!

            Comment


            • #16
              Originally posted by brosis View Post
              and this is how you get marketshare. You talk to OEMs and make NDA agreements.
              No, you get market share by consumer demand. Consumer demand would be huge if Linux would have working alternatives for windows softwares and a similar user interface thats familiar to end users. The goal is getting closer all the time but several failed attempts of trying to distribute linux distros with hardware have showed that linux is simply not mainstream ready. Consumers get hit with problems they can't solve and they return the machines and switch back to windows. There's no conspiracy or secret handshakes there.

              90% of the machines with windumbs preinstalled come through direct agreements between Intel and AMD. Before, it used to be 100%.
              Large OEM preinstallations = large marketshare = many developers = lots of software = revenue and monopoly = huge income = money for next bribe agreement.
              You're a typical fundamentalist thinker who is blaming everyone else for all the trouble in the world. The only thing stopping linux from succeeding is that its just too complicated still for the general public. I have converted a few windows users into linux by preconfiguring a desktop to them so that all software they usually need is configured to work. Silverlight, flash, printer/scanner drivers, system settings etc. Once you do that they are usually surprised that they can live with linux. If anyone in the family plays PC games then the whole attempt is instantly doomed.

              Hehe, OSX drivers are much worser than that of Linux.
              Hehe, worser

              Also, so many drivers thing - have windows users finally stopped yelling "AMD you no give us good driver?".
              When have windows users yelled such things? I have been using AMD/ATI products since I upgraded from my Geforce 2 and I have never had driver trouble.

              Also, 4 years ago, open AMD drivers produced 2 fps in OpenGL 2. Now they produce 100% and varying 60-100% with everything "upstairs".
              Uh OpenGL is not a priority. Dx is.

              Many distros do not include closed drivers, because they were FUDed that they can't distrubute them due to drivers EULA.
              Or fundamentalists like you who scream hate against all things 'proprietary' with foamy mouths.

              Does windows also ship with proprietary OEM drivers? No, it does the same thing - fetches them from the net.
              Neverless, do the tech support people help install windows drivers? I don't think so. They just tell to install the driver.
              It seems its been a long time since you used windows. Windows does not fetch drivers from the net, computers either come preconfigured for the user or in case of home builders, hardware comes with bundled drivers which are installed on first bootup. Windows contains a set of fallback drivers which enable the machine to boot up.

              Users can download and install drivers from the manufacturers websites by executing a simple .exe without having to choose between .deb, .rpm, distro version or start compiling them by hand or hacking existing drivers, such is the case typically with linux.

              Erh... have you check how much RedHat is supported? Because the "life span" you mean is meant only for business customers, that run proprietary stuff and don't want to change things.
              Actually, this behavior is currently seen as inefficient and developers work directly with upstream, because it cuts costs more than so called "stable releases" or "vendor support".
              Life span is not the keyword here, backwards compatibility is. If things would be as rosey as you make them to be, nobody would ever have to start manually hunting old library versions when installing linux software. But they do.


              Proprietary software sucks, you know?
              There you go again Proprietary software RULES. It's the only form of software that makes a living for its workers. Money is the only incentive for actually improving products long term. Most open source projects just die a miserable fading death 'due to lack of resources' when one mans hobby dies as he gets a girlfriend lol.

              Yay, windows fragmentation over versions indeed preventing windows widespread.
              May be Valve is doing the right thing by force-ignoring your cries about outdated version support, eh? They reduce fragmenation
              Nice talking to you, do come back!
              Wut? Windows fragmentation? LOL! Windowses are backwards compatible which is why Windows 8 still contains 16 bit code from the DOS ages.

              Comment


              • #17
                Originally posted by brosis View Post
                Sir, yesterday one of my machines with XP hard-locked while downloading a torrent of a fully legal gaming mod. After getting it, I had to defragment the drive, as the download process of a 1 GiB file alone has produced over 1200 file fragments.
                Sir, get any linux with wine+CSMT patch and dump your windows, sir.
                what you want to show me dear sir ???

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  No, you get market share by consumer demand. Consumer demand would be huge if Linux would have working alternatives for windows softwares and a similar user interface thats familiar to end users. The goal is getting closer all the time but several failed attempts of trying to distribute linux distros with hardware have showed that linux is simply not mainstream ready. Consumers get hit with problems they can't solve and they return the machines and switch back to windows. There's no conspiracy or secret handshakes there.
                  Like NDAed preinstallation agreements that are publicly known by system integrators and store sellers?
                  There is no consumer demand, it comes preinstalled - and other systems can't start, because it is majority preinstalled over past several decades - 90%.

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  You're a typical fundamentalist thinker who is blaming everyone else for all the trouble in the world.
                  Am I doing this? Show me where I said that. I posted the reason, and not everyone else in the world.

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  The only thing stopping linux from succeeding is that its just too complicated still for the general public. I have converted a few windows users into linux by preconfiguring a desktop to them so that all software they usually need is configured to work. Silverlight, flash, printer/scanner drivers, system settings etc. Once you do that they are usually surprised that they can live with linux. If anyone in the family plays PC games then the whole attempt is instantly doomed.
                  I play PC games daily Linux. Surprised?

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  When have windows users yelled such things? I have been using AMD/ATI products since I upgraded from my Geforce 2 and I have never had driver trouble.
                  Liar, I used riva tnt2 and mach128 and since first radeon, up to vista (and including) AMD drivers were worst drivers ever.

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  Uh OpenGL is not a priority. Dx is.
                  You are porting Dx over to Linux? Nice! Wake me up when you finish a patent-free port!

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  Or fundamentalists like you who scream hate against all things 'proprietary' with foamy mouths.
                  Oh dear, is this "fundamentalist" thing contagious and causes one to loose own mind & opinion like you do?
                  Cause, for example take my Epson SX 525 printer - Epson releases closed source crap driver that is system/library-bound, quality limited and with a support deadline and "opensource" driver, that is feature-castrated.
                  Is this proprietary quality you value so much?
                  Compare to Gutenprint driver with variable resolution, rasterisation quality, black ink-emulation, pattern presents, 99 page types support, borderless everywhere and and and.
                  Common, attack me while I call crap -> crap. Won't change my experience, but gives me a good laugh!

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  It seems its been a long time since you used windows. Windows does not fetch drivers from the net, computers either come preconfigured for the user or in case of home builders, hardware comes with bundled drivers which are installed on first bootup. Windows contains a set of fallback drivers which enable the machine to boot up.
                  You decided to lecture me over NDA OEM preinstall agreements?
                  Wincrap comes with M$-signed WHQL drivers, which maintain their own license, kinda what those FUDed Linux distro creators should have understood.
                  And when wincrap does not find drivers, it tries to look over network or get CDs, pretty same as Linux package managers and kernel modules.

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  Users can download and install drivers from the manufacturers websites by executing a simple .exe
                  No, they click on msi, zip, rar, 7z, cab, paf, inf, inx, u3p, vb/ws.
                  They actually don't have to click, because infected things replicate all by themself - one just visits a site, inserts any USB stick or gets email. No need for any action!

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  without having to choose between .deb, .rpm, distro version or start compiling them by hand or hacking existing drivers, such is the case typically with linux.
                  Does Debian user *choose* over .deb, .rpm or compilation per hand?
                  No, he clicks on the apt link and software is installed.

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  Life span is not the keyword here, backwards compatibility is. If things would be as rosey as you make them to be, nobody would ever have to start manually hunting old library versions when installing linux software. But they do.
                  Not backward compatibility, but binary compatibility and its ensured by shipping outdated libraries with holes for those lazy proprietary bastards.
                  Any windows software comes shipped with them, this is the reason of DLL hell, WinSxS bloat, security nightmare and HUGE installation sizes.
                  Tell me, why the fsck would you hunt an old library version??!

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  There you go again Proprietary software RULES.
                  I know how it rules - it rules straight into brick wall. Its not consumable - its already trash.

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  It's the only form of software that makes a living for its workers. Money is the only incentive for actually improving products long term. Most open source projects just die a miserable fading death 'due to lack of resources' when one mans hobby dies as he gets a girlfriend lol.
                  Stallman explicitly mentioned that developers should ask for money for their work, if they see it so, so you even fail here.
                  Also, proprietary software can be shipped for free - its called freeware and does not cost any money.
                  Commercial software is the keyword and it can be open. In fact, this site, phoronix, happens to be hosted by commercial opensource company.

                  Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                  Wut? Windows fragmentation? LOL! Windowses are backwards compatible which is why Windows 8 still contains 16 bit code from the DOS ages.
                  What 16 bit code? It uses a mix of 32bit/64bit libraries and virtual machines.
                  About being compatible, this is where you can go troll further, but keep in mind that proprietary software often uses undocumented API calls or obfuscation/binary protection systems that depend heavily on the OS config and breaks near every system update.
                  Or do we see CD-burning&shipping companies prosper?

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by brosis View Post
                    Like NDAed preinstallation agreements that are publicly known by system integrators and store sellers?
                    There is no consumer demand, it comes preinstalled - and other systems can't start, because it is majority preinstalled over past several decades - 90%.
                    I guess you missed the Dell desktops, EEE pcs etc that shipped with linux preinstalled but died for a shitstorm of negative consumer feedback.

                    Am I doing this? Show me where I said that. I posted the reason, and not everyone else in the world.
                    No you blamed everyone else but the reason, linux itself. It's not mainstream ready and the customer feedback proves it.

                    I play PC games daily Linux. Surprised?
                    I guess you like to limit your selection to about 1 % of game titles AND nvidia only hardware lol. I have news for you, the second half of the world uses AMD for gaming.

                    Liar, I used riva tnt2 and mach128 and since first radeon, up to vista (and including) AMD drivers were worst drivers ever.
                    Bullshit. I've never had driver problems. What sort of problems were you experiencing?

                    You are porting Dx over to Linux? Nice! Wake me up when you finish a patent-free port!
                    Are you retarded? The DEVS focus on where their market is, DX. They couldnt give a shit about the 1%.

                    Oh dear, is this "fundamentalist" thing contagious and causes one to loose own mind & opinion like you do?
                    Cause, for example take my Epson SX 525 printer - Epson releases closed source crap driver that is system/library-bound, quality limited and with a support deadline and "opensource" driver, that is feature-castrated.
                    Is this proprietary quality you value so much?
                    Compare to Gutenprint driver with variable resolution, rasterisation quality, black ink-emulation, pattern presents, 99 page types support, borderless everywhere and and and.
                    Common, attack me while I call crap -> crap. Won't change my experience, but gives me a good laugh!
                    You're talking about poor linux support there. No such problems on Windows. Don't confuse proprietary with poor linux implementation lol.

                    You decided to lecture me over NDA OEM preinstall agreements?
                    Wincrap comes with M$-signed WHQL drivers, which maintain their own license, kinda what those FUDed Linux distro creators should have understood.
                    And when wincrap does not find drivers, it tries to look over network or get CDs, pretty same as Linux package managers and kernel modules.
                    Windows update will try to find drivers, yes. It will not 'look over network' randomly for drivers. The user can install self downloaded drivers or drivers on the bundled CD if he has no network present. Most consumers use branded computers which are preconfigured at the factory to include all necessary drivers and then some.

                    No, they click on msi, zip, rar, 7z, cab, paf, inf, inx, u3p, vb/ws.
                    They actually don't have to click, because infected things replicate all by themself - one just visits a site, inserts any USB stick or gets email. No need for any action!
                    Hahaha you're clueless. It really seems you haven't build even one computer lately. Practically all driver install packages are delivered as .exe. If the driver is compressed to save bandwith, .zip is used almost 100% of the time since every recent windows contains built in .zip support. Try opening .rpm on debian.. doesn't work? How would you do that? Your paranoia about windows is actually quite amusing. I have been using windows with no antivirus for about 7 years now without a single infection. And yes, I check network logs once in a while and run scans online or from a boot cd.

                    Does Debian user *choose* over .deb, .rpm or compilation per hand?
                    No, he clicks on the apt link and software is installed.
                    Uh there is no 'apt' link to click in most cases. Even if there was, 'apt' does not include anything but a fraction of possible software.
                    http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/otherversions/ yum,tar,apt,.tar.gz a linux noob will not have a slightest clue which one he should choose for his distro version or what to do with them For windows theres only 1 choice and the same for macs.

                    Not backward compatibility, but binary compatibility and its ensured by shipping outdated libraries with holes for those lazy proprietary bastards.
                    Any windows software comes shipped with them, this is the reason of DLL hell, WinSxS bloat, security nightmare and HUGE installation sizes.
                    Tell me, why the fsck would you hunt an old library version??!
                    Because the software wouldn't run with the version shipped in the new distro version. It's very fun trying to guess what the library naming is when the installer reports a different name for the component than what you actually need to search from apt for example lol. Couldn't be more complicated if they tried.

                    I know how it rules - it rules straight into brick wall. Its not consumable - its already trash.
                    Bla bla bla proprietary software is the only stuff that WORKS. Most open source is unfinished buggy POS that dies away from lack of resources as nobody has any financial interest in it. And spare me from listing the couple of exceptions that are backed by corporate sponsors that in many cases make their assets by selling shitloads of that 'trash' lol.

                    Stallman explicitly mentioned that developers should ask for money for their work, if they see it so, so you even fail here.
                    Also, proprietary software can be shipped for free - its called freeware and does not cost any money.
                    Commercial software is the keyword and it can be open. In fact, this site, phoronix, happens to be hosted by commercial opensource company.
                    No business is going to release its secrets by publishing their hard worked code and proprietary secret methods for any competition to copy. That should be clear as day for anyone with at least a half of a brain.

                    What 16 bit code? It uses a mix of 32bit/64bit libraries and virtual machines.
                    About being compatible, this is where you can go troll further, but keep in mind that proprietary software often uses undocumented API calls or obfuscation/binary protection systems that depend heavily on the OS config and breaks near every system update.
                    Or do we see CD-burning&shipping companies prosper?
                    https://twitter.com/BuildWindows8/st...64753610035200 straight from the horses mouth. It seems you either have a lot to learn or you're just delusional.

                    Comment


                    • #20

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      I guess you missed the Dell desktops, EEE pcs etc that shipped with linux preinstalled but died for a shitstorm of negative consumer feedback.
                      Okay:
                      http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_...nid=2941120011
                      Windows powered - 3 stars.
                      Linux powered - 4 stars.

                      That, provided, windows has been preinstalled since MSDOS on 100% of machines and 90% from antitrust lawsuit, and had 100% hardware support and did everything to push its own proprietary APIs like WinAPI and Dx, which you still keep insisting on instead of OpenGL.

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      No you blamed everyone else but the reason, linux itself. It's not mainstream ready and the customer feedback proves it.
                      What the hell?
                      What kind of reason is "linux itself"?
                      You accused me of being fundamentalist, but I repeat, you are the fundamentalist - you fail to provide any specific points.
                      Example from EEEpc, the most valued critical review among 110 reviews:
                      http://www.amazon.com/review/R2UVPCY...R2UVPCYCAIGZQO

                      Eventually, manufacturers stopped making netbooks, and by that time Microsoft had crippled the form factor (now with better electronics and a 10" screen) with its own crippled version of Windows, and insisting that they all come with 1 G of RAM. Intel finished the job by making netbooks Linux hostile with their latest 2600 Atom based systems.
                      ...
                      The keyboard is usable, if a bit squishy in its feel. One positive is that Asus put a second function key next to the arrow keys. The biggest complaint typists will have is that the spacing from hand rest to screen is cramped. You may miss when changing rows. The touchpad is one of those with the buttons integrated. The bottom of the touchpad clicks. Click feel is lousy. The pad surface is cramped. I never tested the touch aspect with the supplied Ubuntu, but I can say that with Debian, it is quite good, responding well to swipes, and one through three fingered taps.
                      ... where is that "Linux" aspect you are insisting on?...
                      ...
                      The machine comes with the not-so-capable Intel Graphics 2000 video (it's what comes with Sandy Bridge computers). Linux support is decent, though with Debian, you may want to disable, or remove Xscreensaver.

                      All told, a decent machine with basic hardware that gives very good battery life. If you travel, want a very portable, cheap machine that can still get work done without plugging in, this is the one for you.


                      Come on, stupid prick, show me where "Linux" fails!

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      I guess you like to limit your selection to about 1 % of game titles AND nvidia only hardware lol. I have news for you, the second half of the world uses AMD for gaming.
                      I use AMD 5850 with opensource radeon driver. AHAHAHA!

                      About 1% idiotism, come!
                      WineHQ stats:
                      3690 platinum titles
                      3186 gold titles
                      2856 silver titles
                      2415 bronze titles
                      and 3936 garbage, with garbage often meaning its broken on *this* version of Wine, but works on different one.
                      Its really really easy to use multiple Wine versions for any title and the breakage is happening most due to DRM in games or locale checks.

                      The basic math reveals:
                      Works: 8457
                      Does not work on current version: 3936
                      Which is 68,24% against 31,76%, and inside the 31,76% there are 20% of titles that actually work, but broken in current version and only 15% that never worked.
                      Example - the third title from top: http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManage...ation&iId=8136
                      The first title was broken since age and second title is a try to install .NET installer on Linux, something both stupid and hard.

                      Here goes your 1% and nvidia only bullshit, debunked!

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      Bullshit. I've never had driver problems. What sort of problems were you experiencing?
                      Bluescreens due to atikmdag.sys. Its a freaking fact that AMD drivers suck under windows since forever.
                      Also how about this?

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      Are you retarded?The DEVS focus on where their market is, DX. They couldnt give a shit about the 1%.
                      No, but in your quest look in a mirror.
                      You want Linux to succeed and insist on Dx, where its proven Dx is quite same in performance and technical level to Dx, whilst being completely cross platform.
                      Where did you get 1% makes me laugh even louder, as there are render backends, that are OpenGL, but windows only for the sake of developers being to lazy to implement them on any other platform and software being proprietary, which limits developers to capable. Proprietary rules?? Ahaha! PWNED. Next!

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      You're talking about poor linux support there. No such problems on Windows. Don't confuse proprietary with poor linux implementation lol.
                      Wrong! Proprietary means - only owner can change anything. So who is to blame for "poor linux support"???! FYI, Gutenprint is available to windows as well. I said proprietary sucks - and it does. PWNED.

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      Windows update will try to find drivers, yes. It will not 'look over network' randomly for drivers. The user can install self downloaded drivers or drivers on the bundled CD if he has no network present. Most consumers use branded computers which are preconfigured at the factory to include all necessary drivers and then some.
                      I always wondered what the fsck is this crap?


                      And this crap (windows update IS LOOKING OVER NETWORK):


                      And even this crap in windows95


                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      Hahaha you're clueless. It really seems you haven't build even one computer lately. Practically all driver install packages are delivered as .exe. If the driver is compressed to save bandwith, .zip is used almost 100% of the time since every recent windows contains built in .zip support. Try opening .rpm on debian.. doesn't work? How would you do that? Your paranoia about windows is actually quite amusing. I have been using windows with no antivirus for about 7 years now without a single infection. And yes, I check network logs once in a while and run scans online or from a boot cd.
                      You seem to forget that you are laughing alone, as you have not enough required brains to understand what I told you, similar to inability to understand what building a computer has to do with installing software.

                      Practically all driver install packages are delivered as exe?
                      What about this - I just typed "realtek driver windows xp" and the first link is "Vista/Win7 (32/64 bits) Driver only (ZIP file)"


                      Bwahahaha! PWNED.

                      Regarding this 7 years no antivirus bullcrap, of course you haven't got notice of infection, because you have been ass-raped silently. Its AV that is designed to at least inform you it found something. Recently one of the girls at office I work at has catched malware solely by visiting the website, that stole all Firefox stored passwords, including all backend developer passwords of the whole company! AHAHAHA!
                      FYI, these do not exist without reason on wikipedia
                      Drive-by infection (windows only), including drive-by emails that open and execute automatically
                      Self executing USB infection (windows only)
                      Should I educate our stupid windows user more? How about a windows graphics format that is autoexecuted automatically, especially when in attachment?
                      Windows graphic format vulnerability

                      Windows is known to have over several MILLIONS OF ACTIVE INFECTIONS, while Linux has currently only a bunch of EXPLOITS that require manual attack and can be easily deflected using basic hardening.

                      Lets see what internets thinks about it, eh?


                      And what micro$$$ofts?


                      By running windows without antivirus, you basically are asking for it.
                      So, no, hole-exploited you belong!


                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      Uh there is no 'apt' link to click in most cases. Even if there was, 'apt' does not include anything but a fraction of possible software.
                      http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/otherversions/ yum,tar,apt,.tar.gz a linux noob will not have a slightest clue which one he should choose for his distro version or what to do with them For windows theres only 1 choice and the same for macs.
                      LOL, you just proved the fact that proprietary sucks yourself! Congratulations, noob!

                      Debian has apt-url, one click install that allows to immediately add the repo to the system, or there is a direct link to package deb which is 1-to-1 of what MSI is (thats microsoft installer binary, in the case you have no clue).

                      Suse has 1-click installer that immediately allows to add repo to system AND install package.

                      Gentoo, Arch, Exherbo allow to install the package from ports DB, that can pull out and install everything from everywhere automagically.

                      And windows noob still browses internets for the malware or adware infected software! AHAHAHAHAHA! PWNED.

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      Because the software wouldn't run with the version shipped in the new distro version. It's very fun trying to guess what the library naming is when the installer reports a different name for the component than what you actually need to search from apt for example lol. Couldn't be more complicated if they tried.
                      Software always run with newer distro version for me.
                      Maybe because I use FLOSS software, that is packaged as it should be?

                      Yep.

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      Bla bla bla proprietary software is the only stuff that WORKS. Most open source is unfinished buggy POS that dies away from lack of resources as nobody has any financial interest in it. And spare me from listing the couple of exceptions that are backed by corporate sponsors that in many cases make their assets by selling shitloads of that 'trash' lol.
                      Bla bla bla, says the guy who types it from opensource browser (unless he is head damaged to use IE or Opera (which uses libwebkit aka libhml5 engine outsourced from KDE). I also don't see any corporate trash in Gnome3, MATE, KDE(any version), Fx, LibreOffice, gThumb, Okular/Evince, PlayonLinux, Dosbox, Virtualbox, GIMP, Blender, Xsane, Gnome games, MediaInfo, VLC, Filezilla, Liferea, Code::Blocks, Peazip - and they all work magnificently.

                      So, you must be really really dumb or blind, or both.
                      Who cares?
                      PWNED.

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      No business is going to release its secrets by publishing their hard worked code and proprietary secret methods for any competition to copy. That should be clear as day for anyone with at least a half of a brain.
                      What secrets?
                      Malware?
                      Or secrets that lead to creation of over 5000 all-proprietary sub-standards?
                      Hard worked code that doesn't sell, because it leads to bullcrap and proprietary companies going bankrupt, whilst opensource companies paid for DEVELOPMENT and not copies flourish?
                      Yeah, see that daily.

                      PWNED.

                      Originally posted by ACiD View Post
                      https://twitter.com/BuildWindows8/st...64753610035200 straight from the horses mouth. It seems you either have a lot to learn or you're just delusional.
                      Its a virtual machine dumbass. Its a 16-bit compatibility VM. And its not included in 64-bit version, because maintaining multilib (system32, system64) is so hard for them that they want it to die by telling you to go fuck yourself that "its not supported anymore". Good example of proprietary attitude! Go run in cycles!

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