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Ubuntu To Get Its Own Package Format, App Installer

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Serge View Post
    After re-reading what I wrote in here, I've realized that I'm essentially spreading FUD. Let me just add a footnote to make a point absolutely clear: I am merely speculating on what this installer might be capable of, and what might happen. By no means am I trying to give people the impression that things absolutely will turn out the way I write in that post.
    Actually you were right with your original post.

    The current systems are full of limitations: http://0install.net/comparison.html

    Thus why many projects have tried to improve the situation, but is now that a big distro is adopting such features, in order to better compete and take marketshare away from the main OSs.

    Ubuntu in particular needs to separate core from apps:
    http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1246

    Of course we need to help keep users within a centralized apps market in order for them to stay as secure as possible, but people keep going out to get 3rd party PPAs, etc. which can be a security risk too, so there's no secure situation right now either, just lots of fragmentation and user frustration with not being able to update apps without a command line that can usually break other software and replace libraries/dependencies. So this is to help with that.

    Lots of trolls may say that ubuntu doesnt need or worse like its going to kill linux or something and that's BS.
    Last edited by madjr; 05-08-2013, 06:20 PM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Detructor View Post
      Similiar to my feelings about the GPL. As a software developer that needs money to pay my rent, pay for my lunch and so on, I hate the GPL. It's retarded in being infectious. Sure, you can sell your software but only one person will purchase it and can then rename it, put it on a website, and sell it for 1/4 of the price.

      As a user, I love the GPL because it gives me the ability to do anything with it.

      Is it normal to be so split about such things?
      You can release under the GPL, then only offer the source code i.e. no binaries.
      Won't stop some determined people, but it will stop a lot. They do the same with Ardour.

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      • #63
        reading for the win

        Originally posted by leonmaxx View Post
        Please someone, kill those guys who use python to write system tools and apps.
        they are still prototyping, from the mailing list:
        Originally posted by Colin Watson
        current prototype implementation in Python; a later implementation could be in C

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        • #64
          Originally posted by intellivision View Post
          You can release under the GPL, then only offer the source code i.e. no binaries.
          Won't stop some determined people, but it will stop a lot. They do the same with Ardour.
          Aurdour is extremely complicated software written by a highly skilled and trained professional, who also has a family. He targets to get $4500 a month.

          Ardour barely brings in $2000 a month.
          https://community.ardour.org/news Look at the finance pane on the right side.
          Last edited by n3wu53r; 05-08-2013, 07:43 PM.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by n3wu53r View Post
            Aurdour is extremely complicated software written by a highly skilled and trained professional, who also has a family. He targets to get $4500 a month.

            Ardour barely brings in $2000 a month.
            https://community.ardour.org/news Look at the finance pane on the right side.
            Christ. Every once in a while, somebody dumps such a load of bollocks on an internet forum that requires you to register a user name just to set the record straight.

            Ardour is making more money than it's worth, and the developer is only relatively skilled within Linux audio, but he's quite mediocre by Mac or Windows standards. I wasted a month of my life attempting to use Ardour3, it crashes every 5 minutes if you try to do anything other than just record a microphone, and the Ardour bugtracker reflects this truth.

            They allow Harrison to make a closed source DAW with the Ardour GPL code, which only sells for $45 and is not popular at all because adding Harrison DSP doesn't make Ardour suck any less. They also have a Mac port of Ardour that nobody uses, because it doesn't begin to compare to real DAWs like Logic, Digital Performer and Protools.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by leonmaxx View Post
              Please someone, kill those guys who use python to write system tools and apps.
              Oh, you want to get rid of Canonical and Red Hat and HP and the wicd developers?
              Red Hat-yum
              HP-hplip
              wicd needs python

              (I personally don't like this trend, but it's not solely Canonical's devising; I get the impression that Red Hat has done more to contribute to system bloat than anyone else.)
              Last edited by Ibidem; 05-08-2013, 09:21 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Ibidem View Post
                Oh, you want to get rid of Canonical and Red Hat and HP and the wicd developers?
                Red Hat-yum
                HP-hplip
                wicd needs python

                (I personally don't like this trend, but it's not solely Canonical's devising; I get the impression that Red Hat has done more to contribute to system bloat than anyone else.)
                A well written python app will be just as fast as a C or C++ app unless you optimize the C or C++ app in some way (beyond just best practices). Also python is easier for maintenance so theres a bump in its direction. This flies directly at the same age old argument... do you use a custom written hand tuned algorithm thats fast, but a nightmare to maintain. Or do you go for a slightly slower one, that still gets the job done, thats easier to maintain? Personally, I prefer longterm maintenance benefits from easy to read code.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                  And in 1990 i'd agree...but this is 2013, storage is cheap. I can (and did) go out and get a 1TB external USB3.0 HDD for $75, so who cares? They're all being kept in their own app's folder so its not even like theyre all flooding /usr/lib
                  I'd surely like to see you install that 1TB drive into your phone. Since, you know, that's where this packaging work is mostly focussed towards.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by gigaplex View Post
                    I'd surely like to see you install that 1TB drive into your phone. Since, you know, that's where this packaging work is mostly focussed towards.
                    USB drive to phone connection. There are many adapters that allow for this already.

                    The only obstacle is support for external USB devices at the operating system level.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Detructor View Post
                      In my eyes the GPL is all about rights of the 'customer' aka the user, the developer has nearly no rights and that's what I'm not comfortable about.
                      That's just not true - the GPL gives the developer the right to do something they would otherwise have no right to do, namely use their code in your product. It's not quite so unrestrictive as some licenses, but it's more than you get by default.

                      Edit: or do you mean the developer of the GPL code? It's not clear whether you object to releasing your own code under GPL, or to being forced to by using other people's GPL code...

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
                        USB drive to phone connection. There are many adapters that allow for this already.

                        The only obstacle is support for external USB devices at the operating system level.
                        That's clunky enough if the drive is purely used for data, and I can't see Canonical expecting any of their customers to do that. If applications are installed to it as well (which is implied as this discussion came about due to increased storage requirements for applications) then have fun running those applications.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
                          USB drive to phone connection. There are many adapters that allow for this already.

                          The only obstacle is support for external USB devices at the operating system level.
                          Well, there's one other obstacle too - the fact that to use the applications installed on that drive, your phone needs to be plugged into an external drive that's twice as big as the phone is. Not great usability...

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                            A well written python app will be just as fast as a C or C++ app unless you optimize the C or C++ app in some way (beyond just best practices). Also python is easier for maintenance so theres a bump in its direction. This flies directly at the same age old argument... do you use a custom written hand tuned algorithm thats fast, but a nightmare to maintain. Or do you go for a slightly slower one, that still gets the job done, thats easier to maintain? Personally, I prefer longterm maintenance benefits from easy to read code.
                            Python is not slightly slower, it is even slow compared to other languages that do not generate machine code: java, c#, javascript... Obviously well written python app is not even close to being as fast as a c or c++ one, you could maybe get close trying to optimize the code, but then it would be unmaintainable.

                            By the way, for the people that say Canonical is harming the linux ecosystem with this and other decisions. We shouldn't consider ubuntu part of the linux ecosystem anymore. It is not a linux distribution. It is an operating system that it happens to be based on linux, but it could well be based on any other kernel and it wouldn't make a difference (at least that is where it is headed), just like android. Go to the ubuntu main (not the documentation) webpage and try to find the word linux there it is hidden somewhere, but difficult to find.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                              A well written python app will be just as fast as a C or C++ app unless you optimize the C or C++ app in some way (beyond just best practices). Also python is easier for maintenance so theres a bump in its direction. This flies directly at the same age old argument... do you use a custom written hand tuned algorithm thats fast, but a nightmare to maintain. Or do you go for a slightly slower one, that still gets the job done, thats easier to maintain? Personally, I prefer longterm maintenance benefits from easy to read code.
                              First, there seems to be a common misunderstanding here:
                              Bloat != slow

                              Slow speed is often a symptom of bloat, but bloat means "too much code/storage space/memory".
                              And excess dependencies do factor into that.

                              wicd is an example of what I mean:
                              the job it performs is useful, but try installing it on TinyCore.
                              It needs dbus, gobject, GTK, and Glade plus the python modules, python, python-iniparse, and all the CLI tools you'd use to do the same thing.
                              wifi-radar needs python, GTK, and python-gtk, plus the CLI tools. There's a big difference there (mainly python-dbus and glade), but...it still is rather high-footprint compared to things like Frisbee (a shell+gtkdialog network manager from Puppy).

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                              • #75
                                Glick2

                                There is a gnome project calls glick2 that provide sandboxed environment to self-contained packages: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTI5NDQ

                                Why ubuntu don't use it too? Sorry .... NMH syndrome

                                But to have a second app install method like this is very useful for users and developers.

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