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Miguel de Icaza Leaves Linux For Apple OS X

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  • #46
    fragmentation would be bad if a lot of work didn't go back upstream, and having a choice wasn't a good thing.

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    • #47
      does someone know what that means for Mono? As a cross-platform developer I hope that it doesn't influence Mono.

      All hate against Microsoft aside: There is just no good/useable cross-platform language aside from C#/VB.NET.

      You got that slow mess that is called Java with a lot of hipster talk about 'beans' and 'factories' but that stuff is just bloated and ugly. Also there is not one good IDE for it (well, to be fair, if you compare any IDE to VisualStudio, they just all hang behind in terms of functionality and how you work with it.)

      And that's it.

      And please don't come around and blurt 'but there is Vala'. Yes, Vala exists. And it's hard to work with it (nobody knows it, nobody uses it, documentation is wrong or not available and the GTK binding is just...well I had nightmares after I tried to write a small program with it)

      Maybe, in a year or more you could use HTML5 for stuff like that but you still need something to bind to a database and I'm also not very fond of all this 'let's move everything into a browser'.

      The only other solution would be to do it like Teamviewer does it: Bundle your program with WINE and I think we can all aggree that *that* would be the absolute worst case.

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      • #48
        I really didn't liked MONO but Miguel is right. Linux is fragmented, but it's not a bad thing, at least i don't have to use buntu shit.

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        • #49
          Fragmentation is FUD for choice

          Originally posted by staalmannen View Post
          +1 great definition!

          Should be put in every dictionary on the planet.
          +1
          Fragmentation is FUD from corporations whose marketing departments decide customers are better off with no choice.

          In the FOSS world fragmentation is a marginal inconvenience for the opportunity to each one to carry his vision. Then there is natural selection and anyone can see which are the better distros to consider and there are plenty reviews to make up one's mind.

          Don Quichotte de Icaza advising people to buy Macs and offering Macs even while he was 'working for Linux'... What a pompous narcissistic nerd.
          I switched to Linux back in 2007, I never created a DE and I have almost zero developer skills but since 2008 I have always been advising people to have a Linux partition (and I installed light distros on low spec PCs) and to stay away from the over-priced closed Macs.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by asdx
            "#fragmentation - lame excuse by people who just want to hate on having choice."
            Totally agree with this. That's why I welcome Ubuntu's new display manager. More choice = better.

            Comment


            • #51
              Linux needs a damn dictator. As if the current fragmented mess that is "desktop Linux" wasn't enough, they added TWO more display servers! One to fix broken X, then another one to fix the alternative and/or just to keep code inhouse. Just wow. Year of Desktop Linux (TM) didn't come in 2000, it won't come in 2020 either. This is what happens when you trust nerds to create good UI concepts for normal people. You need someone rational at the top to tell the nerds what they should code, not the other way around. I always laugh when I see people arguing that the Linux desktop is better than Windows/Mac, and has reached maturity. We all know these people spend hours setting up their desktop, installing binary drivers, desktop extensions, custom launcher docks, etc. and when they are finally done it looks kinda like a Mac except it's just a polished turd.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Detructor View Post
                does someone know what that means for Mono? As a cross-platform developer I hope that it doesn't influence Mono.

                All hate against Microsoft aside: There is just no good/useable cross-platform language aside from C#/VB.NET.

                You got that slow mess that is called Java with a lot of hipster talk about 'beans' and 'factories' but that stuff is just bloated and ugly. Also there is not one good IDE for it (well, to be fair, if you compare any IDE to VisualStudio, they just all hang behind in terms of functionality and how you work with it.)

                And that's it.

                And please don't come around and blurt 'but there is Vala'. Yes, Vala exists. And it's hard to work with it (nobody knows it, nobody uses it, documentation is wrong or not available and the GTK binding is just...well I had nightmares after I tried to write a small program with it)

                Maybe, in a year or more you could use HTML5 for stuff like that but you still need something to bind to a database and I'm also not very fond of all this 'let's move everything into a browser'.

                The only other solution would be to do it like Teamviewer does it: Bundle your program with WINE and I think we can all aggree that *that* would be the absolute worst case.
                LOLWUT? From every modern benchmark I've ever seen Java gives C# butthurt in the speed department. I guess you don't like the massive amount of Java IDEs either. They are different, not inferior. To give you some credit though, I don't code in Java (C++ and lua all the way for me) but still, I think that criticism unnecessary and incorrect.

                Comment


                • #53
                  While I missed the comprehensive Linux toolchain and userland, I did not miss having to chase the proper package for my current version of Linux, or beg someone to package something. Binaries just worked.
                  If the 2-3 major distributors would sit down and agree on a standard application bundle format there would a lot less fragmentation in Linux. Packages and centralized repositories are alright for maintaining the system. However, applications should be easily distributed from anywhere and from anyone, just like MacOS or Windows. Ideally the user should be able to get applications from the application creators themselves, e.g. Firefox from Mozilla, Chrome from Google, MySQL from Oracle, etc. If I was a developer of a successful open source application, I'd like the user to get a cross distro binary directly from my site. It would be a win for both me and the user.
                  Last edited by zoomblab; 03-06-2013, 04:42 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Detructor View Post
                    does someone know what that means for Mono? As a cross-platform developer I hope that it doesn't influence Mono.

                    All hate against Microsoft aside: There is just no good/useable cross-platform language aside from C#/VB.NET.

                    You got that slow mess that is called Java with a lot of hipster talk about 'beans' and 'factories' but that stuff is just bloated and ugly. Also there is not one good IDE for it (well, to be fair, if you compare any IDE to VisualStudio, they just all hang behind in terms of functionality and how you work with it.)

                    And that's it.

                    And please don't come around and blurt 'but there is Vala'. Yes, Vala exists. And it's hard to work with it (nobody knows it, nobody uses it, documentation is wrong or not available and the GTK binding is just...well I had nightmares after I tried to write a small program with it)

                    Maybe, in a year or more you could use HTML5 for stuff like that but you still need something to bind to a database and I'm also not very fond of all this 'let's move everything into a browser'.

                    The only other solution would be to do it like Teamviewer does it: Bundle your program with WINE and I think we can all aggree that *that* would be the absolute worst case.
                    I'm a former .NET developer that ported almost all my work to C++(11), it's quite cross platform(but not build-once run everywhere... neither is C#, Mono though. I had many issues with things that worked fine in .NET but not mono.)
                    Not to mention that a lot of linux users just plain don't like mono, and I don't blame them.

                    C# and Java were great when your choices for development were C, C++98(03), or Java.

                    Originally posted by zoomblab View Post
                    If the 2-3 major distributors would sit down and agree on a standard application bundle format there would a lot less fragmentation in Linux. Packages and centralized repositories are alright for maintaining the system. However, applications should be easily distributed from anywhere and from anyone. Ideally the user should be able to get applications from the application creators themselves, e.g. Firefox from Mozilla, Chrome from Google, etc.
                    Agreed with this, Linux could use a bit more standardization across the distros.
                    Last edited by peppercats; 03-06-2013, 04:41 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by vk512 View Post
                      to stay away from the over-priced closed Macs.
                      I think OS X is much more open than eg. Windows. So, You can compile your own kernel on OS X and use many great open source tools.
                      OS X is not a bad operating system, but most Linux users don't read too much documentations and books about Darwin and OS X.

                      For example:

                      http://www.opensource.apple.com

                      http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Mac-.../9781430216506
                      http://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-iOS-Int.../dp/1118057651
                      http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596520632.do
                      http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Unix-.../dp/1449332315
                      etc.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by arokh View Post
                        Linux needs a damn dictator. As if the current fragmented mess that is "desktop Linux" wasn't enough, they added TWO more display servers! One to fix broken X, then another one to fix the alternative and/or just to keep code inhouse. Just wow. Year of Desktop Linux (TM) didn't come in 2000, it won't come in 2020 either. This is what happens when you trust nerds to create good UI concepts for normal people. You need someone rational at the top to tell the nerds what they should code, not the other way around. I always laugh when I see people arguing that the Linux desktop is better than Windows/Mac, and has reached maturity. We all know these people spend hours setting up their desktop, installing binary drivers, desktop extensions, custom launcher docks, etc. and when they are finally done it looks kinda like a Mac except it's just a polished turd.
                        And how do you propose dictating what people decide to do on their own spare time and how they should contribute ? There will always be choice and alternatives in the FLOSS world, and that both has good and bad sides, but you cannot fundamentally change it. The bigger players will be the ones who can provide some direction and invite people to pull together.

                        As for Mir, that's just some healthy competition for Wayland. QQ to the Wayland camp. Why shouldn't the "next Linux display tech" be exposed to some competing alternatives ? Hopefully, the technically superior one will prevail and evolution takes care of the rest.

                        Good luck with that boring Mac and Apple as your damn dictator.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by gbudny View Post
                          I think OS X is much more open than eg. Windows. So, You can compile your own kernel on OS X and use many great open source tools.
                          OS X is not a bad operating system, but most Linux users don't read too much documentations and books about Darwin and OS X.

                          For example:

                          http://www.opensource.apple.com

                          http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Mac-.../9781430216506
                          http://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-iOS-Int.../dp/1118057651
                          http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596520632.do
                          http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Unix-.../dp/1449332315
                          etc.
                          You are quite right in your assessment. Nevertheless, I'm really amused to see that this... Miguel or something... is now using a Mac out of frustration, whereas I did the exact contrary several years ago. OS X was too restrictive for me, and overall, not fragmented enough I would say

                          I'm using GNOME 3 on an everyday basis, and I don't care his having been involved in it some 10 years ago, I don't feel the same nonsense that I read everywhere about this desktop, so well...

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                          • #58
                            Bye bye...

                            Ah, then this start to look like a nice day!
                            Bye bye Miguel and, for the love of god, don't come back!!

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Awesome!! I shall drink to that!


                              And please don't come back. The community doesn't need you or your stinking Mono.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                This comes as a surprise, because many people said he was in bed with Microsoft, so if he were going anywhere, I guess people would expect it to be Microsoft, but instead he went with Apple.
                                Traitor!

                                I hope Mono on Linux doesn't suffer from this though.

                                I dislike Silverlight too, but to be honest it isn't any worse than Adobe Flash, actually its probably technically superior.
                                Luckily nobody uses Silverlight, so I don't really care for Moonlight.
                                However, Mono is great, C# and and the .NET Framework are well-designed and really great.

                                People hate on .NET, but its pretty much Java done right.
                                It would be nice if both Windows and Linux had support for .NET so we can have cross-platform applications.
                                Also .NET is very productive and allows developers to easily and quickly great good applications.

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