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  • Originally posted by curaga View Post
    There's now a $99 Android phone from a big name manufacturer, with an IPS screen and a quad core cpu. (Archos, introduced today)

    Bit hard for Asha to compete with that.
    Ever used an Android-powered tablet by Archos? it's torture, to say the least. So I'm very skeptical that they can produce a good phone that doesn't lag the very second I put my finger on the display.

    If I want a laggy Android experience my old HTC Wildfire can do an even better job at that.

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    • I have yet to see a non-laggy Android phone, including quad/penta cores. I haven't used 4.1 or newer, though.

      The point was more about the hw anyway - if a brand name can push that kind of hw at that price, having a tiny-screen Asha with antique hw is not going to cut it.

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      • Originally posted by curaga View Post
        I have yet to see a non-laggy Android phone, including quad/penta cores. I haven't used 4.1 or newer, though.

        The point was more about the hw anyway - if a brand name can push that kind of hw at that price, having a tiny-screen Asha with antique hw is not going to cut it.
        Versions of Samsung's Galaxy handsets that use their own in-house Exynos SoCs come in very close to near non-laggy as opposed to those that use SoCs from other suppliers. Why Samsung has to use different SoCs for the same phone in different parts of the world remains a mystery. Remember the Galaxy S2? The versions powered by Samsung's Exynos processors were said to be more fluid than those that made use of Nvidia's Tegra SoC.

        And for some people, animation lag is a huge no-no. And my (only) experience with an old Asha phone during a Nokia roadshow some years back was that they generally appear rather fluid for their antiquated hardware.

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        • Originally posted by curaga View Post
          There's now a $99 Android phone from a big name manufacturer, with an IPS screen and a quad core cpu. (Archos, introduced today)

          Bit hard for Asha to compete with that.
          I'm sure Asha only is a temporary solution in the wake for cheap windows 8 phones. I suppose the scrapping of s60 and meego indicate Nokia don't plan to develop a smartphone os long term on their own anymore. The Asha development is probably easier to streamline with the regular s40 development. If I remember correct they have now windows 8 phones around 200 Euro (maybe cheaper in some countries?) so the space for Asha is shrinking.
          Last edited by Akka; 04-20-2013, 08:29 AM.

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          • Actually the $99 Archos phone (35 Carbon) is only single core and not that exciting over other $99 Android phones like the Huawei Y201 Pro.

            WP8 devices are now down to $180 (Lumia 520) but they don't compete with Asha at all because the latter sell for $100 or less. WP8 still has a long way to go until it reaches $100, not only because of minimum hardware requirements but also because vendors are locked into a very limited number of mobile SoCs.

            The problem of lagginess is much overstated I think. In that market segment, it is most important whether or not people can afford a smartphone at all. They will happily accept some jerky animations in exchange for browsing the Internet, installing apps, etc.
            Last edited by chithanh; 04-20-2013, 09:24 AM.

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            • Thanks for the correction - the semiaccurate post on the three archos phones read as if all had quad cores.

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              • Originally posted by chithanh View Post
                Actually the $99 Archos phone (35 Carbon) is only single core and not that exciting over other $99 Android phones like the Huawei Y201 Pro.

                WP8 devices are now down to $180 (Lumia 520) but they don't compete with Asha at all because the latter sell for $100 or less. WP8 still has a long way to go until it reaches $100, not only because of minimum hardware requirements but also because vendors are locked into a very limited number of mobile SoCs.

                The problem of lagginess is much overstated I think. In that market segment, it is most important whether or not people can afford a smartphone at all. They will happily accept some jerky animations in exchange for browsing the Internet, installing apps, etc.
                In my country the Lumia 520 is more like $280 and the asha is much cheaper, but no big seller since most people want real smartphones.
                Andriod can be found from $45 (Huawei U8180 Ideos X1).
                All prices are contract free.
                Now i know that prices differ a lot in different countries but with Androids that's cheaper than Nokia asha i find it hard to see a bright future for the asha phones.
                As you i too find it hard to believe that poor people that get there first smartphone would care much about some small lag in Android, this is more a problem for people that like to complain about Android.
                I can't see that asha will withstand the cheap android phones, maybe Nokia meltemi would have had a better chance but it was never finished and it's still not clear what it actually was and how feature rich it would be.
                I can't see how WP and asha can save Nokia and regain lost market share, but i can see Nokia survive as a small player in the mobile industry.
                Nokia's downfall makes me sad because Nokia has such knowledge in hardware design, it's hard to argue over the cheaper Lumias hardware for their price.

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                • Originally posted by curaga View Post
                  I have yet to see a non-laggy Android phone, including quad/penta cores. I haven't used 4.1 or newer, though.
                  Same here (having used the very latest 4.2.x). I've also never seen ANY phone that didn't have lag, but iphone does have, noticably, the least lag of any mobile system I've used.
                  The issue is simply not one of hardware (as the iphone has demonstrated). IMHO, Android really needs to go to the RT kernel. That would let android more closely control prioritization without having to change how the rendering pipeline is handled internally.

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                  • Originally posted by liam View Post
                    Same here (having used the very latest 4.2.x). I've also never seen ANY phone that didn't have lag, but iphone does have, noticably, the least lag of any mobile system I've used.
                    The issue is simply not one of hardware (as the iphone has demonstrated). IMHO, Android really needs to go to the RT kernel. That would let android more closely control prioritization without having to change how the rendering pipeline is handled internally.
                    Well it's quite easy to write a scheduler for a predefined set of background processes and a maximum of 1 active foreground tasks ;-)

                    With android you can have the same experience, but your phone has to be quite powerful. For example on my Samsung Galaxy Nexus (which is quite powerful) with android 4.2 I have never experienced any noticeable lag. On the other hand there is my HTC Wildfire S which is also running 4.2 but as soon as there is more then one process activley using the cpu there's a noticeable lag.

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                    • Originally posted by liam View Post
                      Same here (having used the very latest 4.2.x). I've also never seen ANY phone that didn't have lag, but iphone does have, noticably, the least lag of any mobile system I've used.
                      The issue is simply not one of hardware (as the iphone has demonstrated). IMHO, Android really needs to go to the RT kernel. That would let android more closely control prioritization without having to change how the rendering pipeline is handled internally.
                      A realtime kernel to get smooth animation. That sounds as a bad solution long term...

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                      • Originally posted by droste View Post
                        Well it's quite easy to write a scheduler for a predefined set of background processes and a maximum of 1 active foreground tasks ;-)

                        With android you can have the same experience, but your phone has to be quite powerful. For example on my Samsung Galaxy Nexus (which is quite powerful) with android 4.2 I have never experienced any noticeable lag. On the other hand there is my HTC Wildfire S which is also running 4.2 but as soon as there is more then one process activley using the cpu there's a noticeable lag.
                        How in the world did you get 4.2 on the Wildfire? Root + custom ROM?

                        My Wildfire's last upgrade was from v2.1 to v2.2, and that's it; HTC's not even thinking of putting v2.3 on these phones even though 2.3 is more of a bugfix release to v2.2.

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                        • Originally posted by liam View Post
                          Same here (having used the very latest 4.2.x). I've also never seen ANY phone that didn't have lag, but iphone does have, noticably, the least lag of any mobile system I've used.
                          My family owns an iPhone 4 and a Galaxy Note 2. And when I compare the animations between all 3 devices, my Lumia 520 with Windows Phone 8 really looks (to me) to have the least lag, and is even more fluid than the iPhone 4 in the interface animation.

                          Love the Note 2's huge display though. Too bad it's too big to stuff in my pocket.

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                          • Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
                            How in the world did you get 4.2 on the Wildfire? Root + custom ROM?
                            Yes root + custom rom. But it's a Wildfire ->S<- which was shipped with 2.3.5 and got updated once by HTC to 2.3.7. After no more updates I rooted it and flashed a 4.0 version. Now I'm at 4.2.1 but it's obviously tuned down in features, because the phone is hardly capable of running stuff like google now etc. and it's still running on a 2.6.35 kernel.
                            But I still like it, because it's so small :-)
                            Last edited by droste; 04-20-2013, 08:27 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by droste View Post
                              Well it's quite easy to write a scheduler for a predefined set of background processes and a maximum of 1 active foreground tasks ;-)

                              With android you can have the same experience, but your phone has to be quite powerful. For example on my Samsung Galaxy Nexus (which is quite powerful) with android 4.2 I have never experienced any noticeable lag. On the other hand there is my HTC Wildfire S which is also running 4.2 but as soon as there is more then one process activley using the cpu there's a noticeable lag.
                              I think you know that ios isn't that simple (plus, I think, there is an api for background tasks but, I'd imagine, they get evicted at the drop of a hat). OSX gets great latency out of the box (apparently not as good as RT linux, but RT linux is hardly stock).
                              Linux probably needs something completely different from CFS, something much more interactive. I know that some changes are either coming (or are in the current rcs) like the bouncing elephant outlier (which I'm surprised even existed since we've had affinity for ages) and the AutoNUMA stuff (hoping "node" will refer to cores as much as sockets).
                              I've played around with android enough to know that unless you get something like a 10GHz xeon you aren't going to see improvements in lag once you are running 4.1+ (even my old Nexus S runs with similar to indentical lag as my N4...it's just not a hardware issue, aside from the absurd device I posited). The problems come down to:1)touch events aren't priortized enough, 2)android takes too long to perform certain draws (an intel engineer wrote a whitepaper where he gave some data about this). The first thing can be helped by an RT kernel, the second can as well IF drawing is prioritized thus not interrupted except by another touch event.


                              Originally posted by Akka View Post
                              A realtime kernel to get smooth animation. That sounds as a bad solution long term...
                              Why? The RT guys seem to think they will eventually achieve performance parity with mainline, and in some cases even faster (networking, I think, was the target there). Besides, I don't recall ever seeing the throughput delta of coop and RT.

                              Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
                              My family owns an iPhone 4 and a Galaxy Note 2. And when I compare the animations between all 3 devices, my Lumia 520 with Windows Phone 8 really looks (to me) to have the least lag, and is even more fluid than the iPhone 4 in the interface animation.

                              Love the Note 2's huge display though. Too bad it's too big to stuff in my pocket.
                              For well used devices, you might be right. I don't own any i or win devices so I am going by using them in stores, and friends/relatives devices.
                              In those cases, ios always wins in terms of following my finger. Place your finger over a specific character in the browser, for instance, and see how much it moves when you scroll up and down. First move slowly, but constantly, then later use acceleration in both directions. IOS simply reacts faster than any of the others. Windows and Android are ROUGHLY equivalent, with windows looking to be a bit more responsive in my view.
                              BTW, I'm not talking about smoothness, only responsiveness.

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                              • Originally posted by Marc Collin
                                I don't agree with your statement that Nokia is dying. Nokia still covers huge market to beat its competitors and have great potential to introduce unique stuff and innovative products in current market.
                                How much are you getting paid for astroturfing?

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