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A Linux User's Perspective Of Microsoft Windows 8

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  • #46
    Originally posted by ruinairas View Post

    You need to add PPA's to actually update installed software....like Gimp, Blender, and various others....
    Huh? There isn't even a comparable "repository concept" existing on MS' OS. Instead you get all sorts of "auto updaters" or have to take care of all the updates manually. And the "(un)install software" dialog in the system settings is an abomination at best (at least on Win 7 and earlier).

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    • #47
      "Finnally! A sensible review of Windows 8". Suprise, suprise: This article turned out to be about Ubuntu, not Windows 8.

      I support your propaganda, but I would appreceate some kind of warning. I mean, common! This was not even remotely interesting. I dont need windows, so Im not going to test it myself. But it would be usefull to read a serious review from someone that is familiar with whats going on in the open source world.

      Most reviews I have seen are made by people that seem to only have used the previous windows releases, and maybe just seen a mac. Its like those horses with patches on the side of their eyes. Patches so that they can only look straight forward and dont get distracted. You dont want that horse to give you perspective on stuff.

      You want the whimsy crazy horse to do that.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by plonoma View Post
        Clean Installs are always very messy.
        I think you mean upgrade installs are always very messy.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by plonoma View Post
          It's not like Linux has like 20+ years old ACL list concepts that are insufficient for many admins.
          JFYI, WinNT also uses ACLs. It could be debatable which implementation is best but at the end of day you usually could set up required permissions in any system, one way or another. In NT it's more flexible but also...
          1) It's not like if you can efficiently and easily edit NT ACLs from batch files, etc. No, seriously, *nix style rights far more simple for automation and batch operations. Windows never targeted that. So it comes at cost. OTOH there is no problem in *nix-like to do anything in batch manner easily enough from scripts or commandline.

          2) NT ACLs are overcomplicated for most system administrators. In fact it's quite rare case when administrator could fully understand NT ACLs operation and properly evaluate effective rights taking all things NT ACLs could use into account. This often leads to either dozens of issues with non-operable programs or ton of security holes. OTOH basic *nix rights system is simple and yet covers most usage patterns. And you can understand rights in effect. Most notably, MS and their devs still miserably fail to run many programs under user (non-administrative) accounts. They even gone as far as to reinvent sudo in most awkward way I ever seen - UAC. In this weird implementation not just administrator account is borked and can get "access denied" but also programs should be explicitly aware of this misfeature. Or else they will be unable to enter some directories at all. Really amazing crapwreck. They "fixed" what was not broken in incredibly twisted ways just to avoid dealing with root cause.

          3) To make matters more interesting, recent windows redirects some directories for some apps. So it's not uncommon to have different filesystem view in different programs. Even if it's not what you want, it could happen. Amazing wreckage again. No, really, they got that it's "bad idea to run all programs as root" but failed to implement it without moron system hack-wrecks. While NT ACLs allowed it from the very begin, MS just failed to enforce this policy on devs. It's just win95 legacy that prevented devs from taking NT rights as something mandatory. It could be sensed even today. You see, *nix programs do not assume user is root for day-to-day OS usage. Not a case with windows apps. Half of them just fail to run as unprivileged user. So MS has been forced to invent some weird semi-limited administrator. Really moron granted that ACLs allowed to do this in usual ways. Just enforce policy on devs and rock-n-roll.

          4) In linux it's up to me to decide how far I can go. I can use just basic rights. Or more advanced ACLs. Or even SELinux/APPArmor/... advanced security subsystems, should I ever need that power. Or I can in-kernel KVM or containers to split the worlds. And every approach is simple on it's own. So I can easily evaluate the results.

          5) NT ACLs were well-designed. However years of marketing crap and attempts to fix what's not broken in futile attempt to solve all problems via strange hacks for compatibility reasons led to something strange and seriously wrecked. To make matters even worse, Windows filesystem also not case sensitive and could access same file in more than one way. Say in 8.3 "dos paths" notation. As the result, real-world deployments, applications and somesuch often suffer from either horrible bugs due to all these weird "hacks" from MS or system security goes well below desired levels. For example it's very common that program serving remote requests (say HTTP or FTP server) and forcing some kind of their own ACLs would EPIC FAIL to deal properly with the fact that same file can be accessed via different paths/names (i.e. long names vs dos 8.3 names). This requires specific attention and only happens in Windows. Most notably, recently well-known nginx server has been found to fail to evaluate permissions when running under windows due to such tricks.

          So does NT ACLs lead to better security? Nah, they aren't. And everything else is secondary.
          Last edited by 0xBADCODE; 10-29-2012, 12:23 PM.

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          • #50
            They reinvent repositories

            Originally posted by Tuxee View Post
            Huh? There isn't even a comparable "repository concept" existing on MS' OS. Instead you get all sorts of "auto updaters" or have to take care of all the updates manually. And the "(un)install software" dialog in the system settings is an abomination at best (at least on Win 7 and earlier).
            You see, these morons are trying to reinvent software repositories. But still years behind from having anyhow comparable tools for system administrators, etc. And they got it in usual way. Aka "shop" and "monopoly". Which makes this idea far less useful for anyone but MS themselves. Not to mention it completely ruins traditional business models around PCs.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
              Most notably, MS and their devs still miserably fail to run many programs under user (non-administrative) accounts. They even gone as far as to reinvent sudo in most awkward way I ever seen - UAC. In this weird implementation not just administrator account is borked and can get "access denied" but also programs should be explicitly aware of this misfeature. Or else they will be unable to enter some directories at all. Really amazing crapwreck. They "fixed" what was not broken in incredibly twisted ways just to avoid dealing with root cause.

              3) To make matters more interesting, recent windows redirects some directories for some apps.
              Yea, that. It gets even rather ludicrous: if you are trying to use the MS Office 2010 To Go feature, you must be logged in as an administrator. It never asks you to enter Administrator credentials, either, just fails with a completely unrelated "the server return an unknown response" error. Makes you wonder how many MS devs themselves use their own security features...

              And yes, redirection of files and directories. Their "Virtualisation" of the Program Files folder is one of the worst things possible, as it simply eats files. The files programs put there are moved to another folder and made invisible to the user. In what way that helps security I have no clue. It's pretty much worse than silent IO failure. Thankfully, with a bit of fiddling around in the registry or the Management Console, that can be disabled.

              And then there's the "library" feature, which is an attempt at implementing something like bookmarks. It works fine most of the time, but you can't go up a level from there. At all. And you can't even copy the real path of it easily. It's quite frustrating.

              That's on Windows 7, though. Not sure how they changed it in Win8, but I'm definitely not going to find out any time soon.

              At least they now have ReFS... ...except it's only on servers. What else is on servers? Metro UI. Yeah...

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              • #52
                Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                I think you mean upgrade installs are always very messy.
                I indeed meant that upgrades of Operating Systems are always very messy: fragile.

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                • #53
                  @GreatEmerald
                  The virtualisation of program folders is meant to avoid programs screwing up the system.
                  It's a safety and security feature to make things run.

                  Isolate programs from one another is one of the features of an Operating System.
                  This allows running, installing, having multiple programs that don't interfere with each other.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by plonoma View Post
                    @GreatEmerald
                    The virtualisation of program folders is meant to avoid programs screwing up the system.
                    It's a safety and security feature to make things run.

                    Isolate programs from one another is one of the features of an Operating System.
                    This allows running, installing, having multiple programs that don't interfere with each other.
                    You don't do it silently. You give the program an "access denied" message. That's exactly what happens when you disable virtualisation.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                      When was the last time you have seen a AAA title released in linux? Prey, which was a couple years late to the party? The last AAA title that was released on linux in a timely manner IIRC was ET:QW back in 2007. I wouldn't say it was a myth.
                      They said there were no games, which is a myth. I really do not give a rats ass about whether some magazine considers a title important or not, the fact of the matter is there are plenty of game titles released for Linux, many of them quite good. You can not escape this fact by simply changing your definitions.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by hefa View Post
                        This person should be banned for rasist comments. I have no problem with different opinions on operating systems but that overly rasist monkey comment should not be tolerated at all.
                        lol wut?!?!

                        you're the only one who associate AFRICA with BLACK-SKINNED PEOPLE... so who's the racist here?
                        images.google.com -> african monkeys

                        google for White South AFRICAN you won't believe your eyes... there live more "whites" thAn "blacks"

                        now twitch my dick

                        edit: fixed typo for grammarnazis
                        Last edited by _artem_; 10-29-2012, 04:40 PM.

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                        • #57
                          I do not think you really help your point there _artem_.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                            I do not think you really help your point there _artem_.
                            that's really funny to hear people, from countries which had "black" slaves in the past, calling me racist... I was born in russia. russia neved had "BLACK" SLAVES. to be true I first saw a "black" man as I went to germany in the age of 13 until that moment I saw "black" skinned people only in US films on the TV

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                            • #59
                              4 posts, looks like a troll account to me.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                                4 posts, looks like a troll account to me.
                                ~500 posts... looks like a flooder account to me.

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