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green energy (Germany) beat nuclear energy(France) in cost effiency!

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  • #11
    Hmmm, if electricity prices are higher because electricity companies are profiteering, why are they all reporting losses?

    Electricity prices are higher because of subsidies. From the article:

    The industry should not suffer, said Grillo, because of "electricity price rises that result clearly from the state support system for renewable energies, and especially photovoltaics."

    Subsidies have encouraged power companies and property owners to add about 25 GWe of solar capacity, mainly in the last five years. This produced 2.4% of Germany's power in the 12 months to February, according to statistics from the International Energy Agency (IEA), while the remaining 12 GWe of nuclear capacity gave 15.3%. By far the bulk of German power comes from fossil fuels, some 71%.

    The IEA data also shows German power exports down by 0.9% in the year up to this February, and imports up by 7.7%.
    No subsidies? Lower costs? If there really were lower costs with renewable energy, why does the renewable energy industry need subsidies?

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    • #12
      I'd say renewables are quite expensive in the construction phase. Lower costs once operational. If you want to construct an offshore windfarm or a dam for hydroelectric energy, costs mount very quickly. Also the nuclear issue is causing losses - the decommissioning process is lengthy, costly and complex for the German energy firms.

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      • #13
        When speaking about green energy, please don't forget that the actual plant (where green electricity is produced) is only half the story. The problem is, you have to produce just enogh electricity to cover the actual demand in each moment. So at 10% green energy in the whole system, it's easy, but if you would like to go 100% green, you have to store the electricity when available and release it when needed. The only way I know of is flooding a higher altitude region by pumping water uphil when there is to much electricity and then driving a classic water plant whe demand is higher. I can't imagine the cost for this, let alone the environmental impact.

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        • #14
          As Q already said, the money the renewables get is by actually producing something while you get subsidies for producing nothing. Maybe he shouldn't use insults all the time but well, that's another story. Also energy prices are actually lower the less the portion of nuclear energy in the net. Maybe you people should actually get your facts straight when talking about stuff in a foreign country first.

          http://www.heise.de/tp/blogs/2/151961 only available in german, sorry

          And why are the energy companies creating losses. Well, how do you avoid taxes and at the same time move the politics towards your position? You get the point.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by Shielder View Post
            Hmmm, if electricity prices are higher because electricity companies are profiteering, why are they all reporting losses?
            wow now you really beat the wrong pupped if a Coal,Nuclear,bullshit-energy company reporting losses then its the green energy fault? LOL ??
            The price in the market is "true" and if a company with "bullshit-power-plants" can not compete in this price range then its there own fault.
            if a company reporting losses on the current energy price and other companies make money on the current energy price then its there own fault.
            but yes in your DREAM Communism world a company always must make profit even if they use bullshit like Coal or nuclear power plants.

            right now we do have a market cleansing in Germany bad and old and worst power plants will be opted out just because the energy costs are so "low"


            Originally posted by Shielder View Post
            Electricity prices are higher because of subsidies. From the article:
            in my knowledge there are only subsidies for COAL and NUCLEAR and yes you are right Germany MUST turn OFF the Subsidies for COAL and NUCLEAR !

            prove for the coal subsidies: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAG_Deu...G#Subventionen

            and for nuclear: "Das Deutsche Institut für Wirtschaftsforschung sieht in der begrenzten Deckungsvorsorge eine implizite Subvention. Da die möglichen Schadenssummen um ein Vielfaches höher sind, muss der Staat für darüber hinausgehende Schäden aufkommen. Müssten die Kraftwerksbetreiber allerdings mögliche Schäden vollständig versichern, wären deren Versicherungsbeiträge erhöht, was sich direkt auf die Wirtschaftlichkeit auswirken würde.[56] Laut einer Greenpeace-Studie wäre Atomstrom um bis zu 2,70 Euro pro kWh teurer, falls bei Kernkraftwerken die gleichen Haftungsregeln gelten würden wie in allen anderen Wirtschaftsbereichen.[57]"

            http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernkraftwerk

            The German Institute for Economic Research admit that nuclear get 2,70€ per kWh subsidies !


            Originally posted by Shielder View Post
            No subsidies? Lower costs? If there really were lower costs with renewable energy, why does the renewable energy industry need subsidies?
            in germany there are only subsidies for nuclear and coal. but not for green energy!

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            • #16
              Originally posted by frank wall View Post
              I'd say renewables are quite expensive in the construction phase. Lower costs once operational. If you want to construct an offshore windfarm or a dam for hydroelectric energy, costs mount very quickly. Also the nuclear issue is causing losses - the decommissioning process is lengthy, costly and complex for the German energy firms.
              this is a problem in the REST of the WORLD but not in GERMANY....

              because you get a credit from the KFW bank.

              "Germans" think in a longer Therm like "1000years" and they also life in the "future" because of there "Language"

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              • #17
                Originally posted by Bbox View Post
                When speaking about green energy, please don't forget that the actual plant (where green electricity is produced) is only half the story. The problem is, you have to produce just enogh electricity to cover the actual demand in each moment. So at 10% green energy in the whole system, it's easy, but if you would like to go 100% green, you have to store the electricity when available and release it when needed. The only way I know of is flooding a higher altitude region by pumping water uphil when there is to much electricity and then driving a classic water plant whe demand is higher. I can't imagine the cost for this, let alone the environmental impact.
                you can get 100% green without any "storage power plants" because you can built a smart grid and

                "negative energy power plants" and no i don't mean a power plant at all i mean a "energy consumer" with the "smartness" of only consume energy if green energy is Available.
                for a example a aluminum melt you can turn it on if green energy is Available.
                or a cool house or refrigerator you only turn it on if green energy is Available and you use the negative temperature as a storage for example you can operate at -27C up to -15C if green energy is Available then you cool it down to -27C and then turn of the refrigerator if green energy is rare.


                "The only way I know of is flooding a higher altitude region"

                now you know a second way.

                and there are even more ways in a smart grid over a large range you can cover the energy sources

                wave power plant cover solar power and solar and wind power covers Osmotic power and earth thermal power covers a wood-gas power plant and this call is covered by a biomass power plant and this is coverd by a biogas plant and this is covered by cold fusion and so one and so one.

                now you get the clue no storage power plant are needed if you really strike all together!

                Comment


                • #18
                  Alternate sources

                  Qaridarium,

                  Please check Lewis Page on the register. He's not one of my favorite authors there because his bias towards nuclear energy (so I see it) but I think he's right about this one.

                  One example: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/16/wind_power_rip/

                  Fact is I can see every month on my bill the price of this 'green' energy. Which apparently is cheaper because is subsidied by everyone of us. Remove this 'incentives' and suddenly the 'green' energy is a lot pricier.

                  D

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                  • #19
                    "Fact is I can see every month on my bill the price of this 'green' energy. Which apparently is cheaper because is subsidied by everyone of us. Remove this 'incentives' and suddenly the 'green' energy is a lot pricier."

                    Fact is, you don't see the amount of taxes you pay for nuclear, the police for the transports, etc. nuclear is NOT cheaper, otherwise energy companies would build huge amounts of power plants. Recently they said they want to have subsidies again otherwise there is no margin, so guess what's expensive...

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by Decebal View Post
                      Qaridarium,

                      Please check Lewis Page on the register. He's not one of my favorite authors there because his bias towards nuclear energy (so I see it) but I think he's right about this one.

                      One example: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/16/wind_power_rip/

                      Fact is I can see every month on my bill the price of this 'green' energy. Which apparently is cheaper because is subsidied by everyone of us. Remove this 'incentives' and suddenly the 'green' energy is a lot pricier.

                      D
                      he is wrong because a wind-miller only gets ~0,06€ per 1kWh if you backup it with a natural GAS power plant it costs 0,10€ per 1kWh this means you get a price range from 0,06-0,10€ maybe a peak load to this means 0,15€ and you pay 0,25€ in Germany.

                      this means your price is so high because of the PROFIT of the Energy companies not because of GREEN energy.

                      also you can't read the subsidies for COAL on your BILL and you can't read the subsidies for NUCLEAR on your BILL

                      a base load power cost 0.04€ in Germany ad your "0,03€ for green energy" to this and you get 0.07€ LOL!

                      a energy company in germany buy the power for 0,04€ and sell it to you for 0.25€ ! its 625% Profit and only 0.03€ is for "green" energy

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