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  • #16
    Originally posted by renkin View Post
    Does anyone agree with this?
    Anyway. I'll go nitpicking from this list.

    How do you kill off distros anyway? They're community driven. People fork when they want to.

    Also, having different distros may not be a bad things. All these distros are based on the same kernel, same userspace utilities and run the same programs. All the non-distro specific work goes upstream, where it then goes downstream and everyone gets to benefit from it. Everyone benefits from everyone's work.

    About jamming things into the kernel.. How else is linux going to have broad hardware support if they don't jam things into the kernel? Plus the kernel is modular, which means that you can compile a kernel for your own specific hardware.

    Even if you include every single driver in the kernel as modules, it still doesn't add any bloat, since those extra modules won't be loaded if they're not needed by the hardware.

    Unify the GUI? Lots of people will be angry about this. Not everyone uses GNOME or KDE. Some people don't even use desktop environments. I personally use Pekwm as my window manager because it allows me to bind any key to do anything.. It's amazing..

    Unless by "Unify the GUI" you mean to make ONE desktop environment that has all the features from all the other window managers and desktop environments (and you can set which features you want and which ones you don't want) -- Then there's no point, because everyone's "unified" gui would still be unique.


    Working closely with hardware manufacturers is a must. I can't wait till the day AMD graphics drivers are awesome and also allow UVD video acceleration.

    I haven't noticed much latency issues even with Pulseaudio, but I don't do any multimedia or studio work (but there are distros that are optimized for this). Pulseaudio is a good step in the right direction IMO. Every application has a server to plug into to reach the sound devices.. The problem is that sometimes ALSA emulation isn't perfect. Audio should definitely be standardized. ALSA + Pulseaudio.


    "Ease of use" is subjective. Linux distros are easier to use than Windows. That is true (for me). I can easily set up a webserver to transfer files to all devices in the house, stream videos, bind arbitrary keys to play or pause my music and even use crontab as my alarm (I actually do that). Anyone who's curious and open minded can adopt linux as their primary OS.. It's not about being smart or computer literate.


    As for scrapping the terminal. That's just silly

    Linux is a pain in the ass for most people.

    terminal is a crutch for poorly written software period.

    the average users doesn't want to deal with it.

    You may not likel hearing it but as a former windows udser and having done quiet a bit of tech support. Its what I hear about linux and its from first hand experiences.

    don't shoot the messenger.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
      Linux is a pain in the ass for most people.

      terminal is a crutch for poorly written software period.

      the average users doesn't want to deal with it.

      You may not likel hearing it but as a former windows udser and having done quiet a bit of tech support. Its what I hear about linux and its from first hand experiences.

      don't shoot the messenger.
      What really drives my Linux usage is curiosity, and I was an all-windows user until three years ago. Windows is a pain in the butt, but at least it's familiar, and if there's a problem, there's always that geeky cousin or uncle that can help out.. With Linux Distros, people can sometimes get frustrated because there is no Start button, but that is not a design flaw. Its only crime is having a different design.

      Also, the terminal is not a crutch for poorly written software. I prefer programs that can be accessed by the terminal (example: Deluge torrent has both command line and also graphical interface). It makes the program scriptable, and you can make it do things GUI programs won't be able to do. Just get creative.

      As for the average user not wanting to deal with linux problems. The average user doesn't want to deal with ANY problem, they ask other people to help anyway. As for linux adoption for the average user.. Well..:

      Everyone has a say in linux. That's why there are so many different distros. People want their Linux OS to do what THEY want to do, so they form another distro.

      There are people only interested in Linux as a server platform, people interested in Linux as an embedded OS, and there are different groups focusing on desktop usability. That means linux grows in all directions. I don't think it was ever the goal of linux to be an OS for the average user. Even the creator Linus Torvalds said that he wants linux to succeed on the desktop, but what he meant was for it to succeed on his own desktop. However, there are many communities that concentrate on bringing linux to the average user (example: Ubuntu, mint, whatever distro) and they're making good progress..


      But really. We really need to get together and decide which sound implementation to stick with.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by renkin View Post
        What really drives my Linux usage is curiosity, and I was an all-windows user until three years ago. Windows is a pain in the butt, but at least it's familiar, and if there's a problem, there's always that geeky cousin or uncle that can help out.. With Linux Distros, people can sometimes get frustrated because there is no Start button, but that is not a design flaw. Its only crime is having a different design.

        Also, the terminal is not a crutch for poorly written software. I prefer programs that can be accessed by the terminal (example: Deluge torrent has both command line and also graphical interface). It makes the program scriptable, and you can make it do things GUI programs won't be able to do. Just get creative.

        As for the average user not wanting to deal with linux problems. The average user doesn't want to deal with ANY problem, they ask other people to help anyway. As for linux adoption for the average user.. Well..:

        Everyone has a say in linux. That's why there are so many different distros. People want their Linux OS to do what THEY want to do, so they form another distro.

        There are people only interested in Linux as a server platform, people interested in Linux as an embedded OS, and there are different groups focusing on desktop usability. That means linux grows in all directions. I don't think it was ever the goal of linux to be an OS for the average user. Even the creator Linus Torvalds said that he wants linux to succeed on the desktop, but what he meant was for it to succeed on his own desktop. However, there are many communities that concentrate on bringing linux to the average user (example: Ubuntu, mint, whatever distro) and they're making good progress..


        But really. We really need to get together and decide which sound implementation to stick with.
        I started using linux in 1998 it was actually far less fractured then. Its gotten to out of hand.

        Linux needs one really good solid API and they need to hold binary compatability. They need to get application developers on board or the boat is going no where.

        My beef with terminal is thats its often needed to do simple thing that should be GUI.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
          I started using linux in 1998 ...
          My beef with terminal is thats its often needed to do simple thing that should be GUI.
          I don't use much GUI programs. I only run X for the graphical terminals, web browsing and for watching videos, so I can't really say what the GUI can or can't do. I'm not familiar with it (anymore).

          What are those simple things you speak of?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by renkin View Post
            I don't use much GUI programs. I only run X for the graphical terminals, web browsing and for watching videos, so I can't really say what the GUI can or can't do. I'm not familiar with it (anymore).

            What are those simple things you speak of?
            it depends on the circumstance but there are situation where installer don't run etc etc etc and your only hope is terminal, Ubuntu has made alot of useability strides.

            I don't want a command line OS. neither do alot of other people. Point click and go. until linux as a OS accomplishs this on the desktop, its doomed to be a no show on desktop.

            Its great for server though. My ubuntu howmeserver is a nice machine, always up, never crashs but its pretty stripped down.

            I don't have a beef with linux, I am trying to exspress why it hasn't been a sucess on dekstop despite nearly 2 decades of development.

            Comment


            • #21
              Hire Developers

              Companies should provide drivers for one Linux distribution.

              Distributions should be required to support one version for no less than 10 years.

              ][Slackware 9.1 changelog][
              Thu Dec 16 18:57:05 UTC 2010
              patches/packages/bind-9.4_ESV_R4-i486-1_slack9.1.tgz: Upgraded.
              This update fixes some security issues.
              For more information, see:

              9.1 still gets patches.

              Comment


              • #22
                Yes, you have huge choice with proprietary. The EULA is full of choices. Have fun.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by squirrl View Post
                  Companies should provide drivers for one Linux distribution.

                  Distributions should be required to support one version for no less than 10 years.

                  ][Slackware 9.1 changelog][
                  Thu Dec 16 18:57:05 UTC 2010
                  patches/packages/bind-9.4_ESV_R4-i486-1_slack9.1.tgz: Upgraded.
                  This update fixes some security issues.
                  For more information, see:

                  9.1 still gets patches.
                  Agreed. But do you know 90% of BSODs is because of bad written drivers? Closed source mind you. The situation is already good now - manufacturers *should* provide opensource drivers and kernel.org people can make them even more polished.

                  Maybe whats linux is missing is stable ABI for drivers and software. But this would mean requirement of ten versions of same infrastructure and bugs/exploits due to it. As well as written once, forgotten since - kind of binary blobs.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I do not fully get the coincidence between stable drivers and open source drivers. I had several ati cards which had several problems with open source drivers. Even with open specs it does not mean that everything works. It is more a psychological aspect that somebody prefers open source. As long as fglrx was supported with those older rv410 or r300 cards i had xv worked, which became a major problem with newer cards and fglrx later. But full system crashes i only had while debugging xorg issues with binary hacks or when switched drivers - that's the point where ati 100% sucks...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I know something very concrete that you can do.

                      Write a java GUI for ffmpeg2theora.
                      http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/index.html

                      There aren't very good cross-platform stable feature-rich solutions for this.

                      For Linux it's important that information is saved in FLOSS-formats+codecs.
                      Making programs that average joe can use will help to let people use those formats.
                      This makes more information accessible with free tools.

                      Making software is important. But also is the infrastructure on which it's build.
                      Linux needs free API's and free file formats, other wise it cannot support it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Kano View Post
                        I do not fully get the coincidence between stable drivers and open source drivers. I had several ati cards which had several problems with open source drivers. Even with open specs it does not mean that everything works. It is more a psychological aspect that somebody prefers open source. As long as fglrx was supported with those older rv410 or r300 cards i had xv worked, which became a major problem with newer cards and fglrx later. But full system crashes i only had while debugging xorg issues with binary hacks or when switched drivers - that's the point where ati 100% sucks...
                        No kano, its not psychological.
                        Proprietary is hidden insecure Pandora, which you cannot modify in any aspect(next-prev versions, card range, small bugs).
                        The hugest cons of proprietary is insecurity and limitation of your choices. Unless the master allows you to do so.

                        Originally posted by plonoma View Post
                        *stuff*
                        WinFF, try it

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          Linux is a pain in the ass for most people.
                          Nope. It depends on their ability to get rid of bad habits and what they need from their computers.

                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          terminal is a crutch for poorly written software period.

                          the average users doesn't want to deal with it.
                          Wrong again. Command shell is extremely flexible and powerful tool for experienced users and/or system administrators.
                          The thing is that (as renkin already noted) "lusers" don't want to deal with anything except for "just click me and all your problems shall magically go away" kind of utilities.

                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          My beef with terminal is thats its often needed to do simple thing that should be GUI.
                          Now that's a whole different story. I agree that there are still quite a few cases where GUI may not be sufficiently developed and these should be addressed ASAP.

                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          You may not likel hearing it but as a former windows udser and having done quiet a bit of tech support. Its what I hear about linux and its from first hand experiences.
                          Same here. I was using Winblow$ for over a decade and the same thing goes for at least a dozen others who are all happy Ubuntu users now. Not that everything is perfect of course, but the fact that they haven't reverted itself means that it must be worth it and the benefits must outweigh all that they had to sacrifice.

                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          don't shoot the messenger.
                          Don't worry - never gonna happen as everyone is entitled to his own opinion and constructive criticism is always welcome.

                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          I started using linux in 1998 it was actually far less fractured then. Its gotten to out of hand.
                          I believe that enough diversity is always a good thing because diverse ecosystems are much more robust. That way almost everyone can get what suits him the best and it obviously seriously limits possible malware impact. Let's not resort to traditional proprietary "one size fits all" approach as that would almost certainly cause us more harm than good.

                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          Linux needs one really good solid API and they need to hold binary compatability. They need to get application developers on board or the boat is going no where.
                          Let me reiterate: SCREW BINARY COMPATIBILITY! Completely tying your hands with backwards compatibility is a direct route to hell. Just have a look at what it did to X and Winblow$! If the so-called "application developers" are so lazy and incompetent that they can't deal with that, then I really believe we're much better off without them.

                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          it depends on the circumstance but there are situation where installer don't run etc etc etc and your only hope is terminal, Ubuntu has made alot of useability strides.

                          I don't want a command line OS. neither do alot of other people. Point click and go. until linux as a OS accomplishs this on the desktop, its doomed to be a no show on desktop.
                          Do you realize that "installers" are actually pointless in systems with package management? That's what packages, package managers and repositories are for.
                          Now that's the bad habits I'm talking about - lusers expect that they need to download some crap from softpedia and lamelopers keep pushing out stupid installers instead of preparing packages and uploading them to distribution partner repositories.
                          If it wasn't for this, things would actually be much more convenient and more importantly, stuff would "just work".

                          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                          Its great for server though. My ubuntu howmeserver is a nice machine, always up, never crashs but its pretty stripped down.

                          I don't have a beef with linux, I am trying to exspress why it hasn't been a sucess on dekstop despite nearly 2 decades of development.
                          Fast, reliable, lightweight. Now imagine using that on the desktop. The problem is, that it requires global paradigm shift - people willing to get rid of bad habits (libre drivers in the kernel, packages with applications in repositories and).

                          Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                          Yes, you have huge choice with proprietary. The EULA is full of choices. Have fun.
                          Exactly.

                          Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                          Agreed. But do you know 90% of BSODs is because of bad written drivers? Closed source mind you. The situation is already good now - manufacturers *should* provide opensource drivers and kernel.org people can make them even more polished.
                          Again - that's exactly why I hate blobs (along with all related bullshit like stable interfaces) so much. And no - it's definitely not psychological as Kano suggested.

                          Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                          Maybe whats linux is missing is stable ABI for drivers and software. But this would mean requirement of ten versions of same infrastructure and bugs/exploits due to it. As well as written once, forgotten since - kind of binary blobs.
                          Stable interfaces for software (system calls) already exists and fortunately never will for drivers. Thank god that kernel developers aren't willing to stab themselves in the back like that.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Got it!

                            You know what? I think I know why proprietary vendors hate GNU/Linux (and probably libre platforms in general) so much - because we're forcing them to actually work and take the responsibility for their results instead of letting them cobble something together once (and usually wrong) and then dumping it out there to bitrot!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by »John« View Post
                              Nope. It depends on their ability to get rid of bad habits and what they need from their computers.


                              Wrong again. Command shell is extremely flexible and powerful tool for experienced users and/or system administrators.
                              The thing is that (as renkin already noted) "lusers" don't want to deal with anything except for "just click me and all your problems shall magically go away" kind of utilities.


                              Now that's a whole different story. I agree that there are still quite a few cases where GUI may not be sufficiently developed and these should be addressed ASAP.


                              Same here. I was using Winblow$ for over a decade and the same thing goes for at least a dozen others who are all happy Ubuntu users now. Not that everything is perfect of course, but the fact that they haven't reverted itself means that it must be worth it and the benefits must outweigh all that they had to sacrifice.


                              Don't worry - never gonna happen as everyone is entitled to his own opinion and constructive criticism is always welcome.


                              I believe that enough diversity is always a good thing because diverse ecosystems are much more robust. That way almost everyone can get what suits him the best and it obviously seriously limits possible malware impact. Let's not resort to traditional proprietary "one size fits all" approach as that would almost certainly cause us more harm than good.


                              Let me reiterate: SCREW BINARY COMPATIBILITY! Completely tying your hands with backwards compatibility is a direct route to hell. Just have a look at what it did to X and Winblow$! If the so-called "application developers" are so lazy and incompetent that they can't deal with that, then I really believe we're much better off without them.


                              Do you realize that "installers" are actually pointless in systems with package management? That's what packages, package managers and repositories are for.
                              Now that's the bad habits I'm talking about - lusers expect that they need to download some crap from softpedia and lamelopers keep pushing out stupid installers instead of preparing packages and uploading them to distribution partner repositories.
                              If it wasn't for this, things would actually be much more convenient and more importantly, stuff would "just work".


                              Fast, reliable, lightweight. Now imagine using that on the desktop. The problem is, that it requires global paradigm shift - people willing to get rid of bad habits (libre drivers in the kernel, packages with applications in repositories and).


                              Exactly.


                              Again - that's exactly why I hate blobs (along with all related bullshit like stable interfaces) so much. And no - it's definitely not psychological as Kano suggested.


                              Stable interfaces for software (system calls) already exists and fortunately never will for drivers. Thank god that kernel developers aren't willing to stab themselves in the back like that.
                              Let me ask this from your diatribe of drivel, has this worked for linux on the desktop and the end user ?

                              I think the marketshare speaks volumes.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                                Let me ask this from your diatribe of drivel, has this worked for linux on the desktop and the end user ?

                                I think the marketshare speaks volumes.
                                I completely agree. The real question is "What's the route cause of the problem (if the relatively small market share even is a problem)?"
                                I would like to get one thing straight though - we obviously disagree about this, but there's definitely no reason to insult each other. I was simply presenting my opinion on the matter and tried to support it with arguments based on the view from my own perspective. If you believe I have insulted you in any way in the process, then I'm really sorry, because I definitely didn't mean to. My opinions are never final before it's proven beyond any doubt that they're right and I'm more than happy to correct them accordingly when I'm presented with relevant evidence before that happens. I honestly believe you should start treating your opinions the same way instead of calling the thoughts of the others "diatribes of drivel" because it defeats the whole point of any discussion if you don't.
                                I believe there's no point in continuing this dialog unless you realize what I'm talking about and start treating other members of this forum with appropriate respect.

                                Comment

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