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google is killing MPEG LA by droping h264:

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  • #31
    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
    Yeah, W3C didn't have an IMG tag before 2006...

    H.264 patents will expire too. Will you in a few years come back here and say "H.264 patents expired" like you just did with JPEG? No, don't think so. JPEG was just as petent encumbered back them as H.264 is now. So clearly "The W3C does not accept web standards that require loyalties" is not true.

    And don't forget GIF too...
    GIF was a royal fuck up, glad you acknowledge that. Do you really wish to fall into the same trap with H.264?

    You keep mentioning JPEG, yet fail to do the necessary research. Here, let me help:
    Originally posted by W3C
    Although the "baseline" variety of JPEG is believed patent-free, there are many patents associated with some optional features of JPEG, namely arithmetic coding and hierarchical storage. For this reason, these optional features are never used on the Web.
    Source: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/JPEG/

    The 2004 patent debacle was caused by submarine patent trolls and those patents were invalidated.

    The H.264 situation is *completely different* to JPEG.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RealNC View Post
      Yeah, W3C didn't have an IMG tag before 2006...

      H.264 patents will expire too. Will you in a few years come back here and say "H.264 patents expired" like you just did with JPEG? No, don't think so. JPEG was just as petent encumbered back them as H.264 is now. So clearly "The W3C does not accept web standards that require loyalties" is not true.

      And don't forget GIF too...
      Please show me where the W3C recommends either JPEG or GIF as a baseline image format in 2006. Also, please go away, stop all innovation, and come back when H.264 will be free of patents. (Hint: see ya in 2028.)

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      • #33
        Well, to be strict, W3C does not accept Free standards either! "The W3C does not accept web standards that require loyalties" is just wrong from the base up. It does not accept *any* formats. All it does is provide an IMG tag and now a VIDEO tag.

        You're free to support whatever format you want in your browser. W3C certainly doesn't tell you that WebM is allowed and H.264 isn't. Don't try to put W3C in the group of people called "codec pushers" :P

        Also, H.264 can be used without paying royalties on the web; I believe some time ago an announcement was made that this will be true for a few years to come.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RealNC View Post
          Also, H.264 can be used without paying royalties on the web; I believe some time ago an announcement was made that this will be true for a few years to come.
          AFAIK, that license only applies to sites serving the videos; player/camera/etc. products must still pay fees.

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          • #35
            And you may not earn a single cent with those videos. The MPEG-LA will come knocking on your door if you add some ads.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Remco View Post
              And you may not earn a single cent with those videos. The MPEG-LA will come knocking on your door if you add some ads.
              No, ads are allowed, but if you actually charge users (whether on a video-by-video basis or by subscription) then you start having to pay some pretty hefty royalties. The idea here is apparently to give a free pass to YouTube, DailyMotion, blip.tv and the like so that the format becomes "the standard", and then milk Netflix, iTunes, the porn vendors, etc..

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              • #37
                Originally posted by evolution View Post
                p.s.: If you want to know more (and you trust Wikipedia) about the H264 / MPEG-4 Part 10 specification, click here.
                Maybe you'll learn some interesting things...

                Cheers
                It's not the H264 specification that anybody is worried about, it is the fact that implementing that spec requires a license from a number of patent holders. In other words, you are not legally allowed to distribute a H264 codec without explicit permission.

                That is what everybody is worried about.

                And why are you thanking me?

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                • #38
                  Youtube moving from h264 to VP8 (WebM) will happen, but not soon.

                  First Google needs the promised version of Adobe Flash supporting WebM/VP8 to come out and wait a year or two until the vast majority of users switch over to this newer Flash version. Given this, even browsers like IE and Safari will be able to play Youtube's WebM through Flash which will serve as a wrapper - something Chrome, Firefox and Opera won't need.

                  However, Google also needs more flexibility when it comes to managing the video streams from JavaScript - which are not supported yet (stuff like buffering, DRM) - but they're all underway.

                  So I think Youtube's transition to WebM will surely happen - but for the transition to complete it will take like 2 to 5 years, depending on how quickly the needed JavaScript functionality lands into FF/Chrome/Opera browsers and how quickly the WebM enabled Flash version comes out and gains above ~90% market-share.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by cl333r View Post
                    So I think Youtube's transition to WebM will surely happen - but for the transition to complete it will take like 2 to 5 years, depending on how quickly the needed JavaScript functionality lands into FF/Chrome/Opera browsers and how quickly the WebM enabled Flash version comes out and gains above ~90% market-share.
                    Flash auto-updates itself on windows and mac doesn't it? In linux the package managers take care of that as well, so it probably won't take long to reach that ~90% market-share, after it's launched.
                    On a side note, the iPad doesn't have flash, yet it has a youtube application that offers the same functionality as the website. How do they do that?

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                    • #40
                      There's an article at ars technica about this. This snippet was rather interesting:

                      "Google is now building a community around WebM (similar to that around Theora), but it hasn't taken any steps to submit WebM to ISO, ITU, or SMPTE for formal open standardization. The company is preferring to keep it under its own sole control.

                      For Google to claim that it is moving to "open codecs" is quite absurd: H.264 is very much an open codec. WebM is not."

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                      • #41
                        This was an extremely one-sided and trollish article. A sad attempt at controversy and ad revenue that's does not fit in with the general quality of ars.

                        Additionally, standardization takes time. First, you create a reference implementation (we now have that). Then, independent implementations appear (ffmpeg now offers its own implementation, others will follow). Now, you have to work out the kinks, clarify whatever needs clarification, respin parts that need respinning - and after that, you can submit your spec to a standardization organism. If you are Microsoft, you can optionally opt for a "fast-track" process and buy off the opposition (see OpenXML).

                        WebM is barely one year old, *of course* it's not standardized yet. We are talking about a proposed codec (WebM) for a proposed standard (HTML5) that will not start being worked on before 2012.

                        Saying that WebM is not a standard yet either misses the point or is intentionally misleading.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by evolution View Post
                          ATM, VP8 doesn't have hardware decoders that support it, so, without using a high-end CPU (for instance, if I play a WebM/VP8 full HD video (1080p) on Youtube, my core2duo CPU goes to above 50% (which is about 100% CPU in a single-threaded app) and videos stutter quite a lot) you're out of luck...
                          ...For Now.
                          Read somewhere (sorry, can't give ya ta link. It's a long time ago, almost forgot about the news too) that google have a partnership with ARM to develop WebM decode-capable-processor (so, looks like they're working on it).

                          Hope it will bear fruit in not too distant future.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                            That means that you support software patents.

                            I don't. Patents should not apply to algorithms, mathematics and formulas. Period.
                            +1. Only stupid support software patents [for algorithms, mathematics, formulas]. But, read everywhere. What ones sues other is related with THAT!

                            Hm.. Wonder why the inventor of pythagoras did'nt patent-ing his algorithm. Why the arabs didn't patent numerics. What a sort of idiot, no?

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                            • #44
                              All in all..
                              Good news!

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                              • #45
                                Hardware WebM video decoder design released: http://techreport.com/discussions.x/20237

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