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  • #16
    Honestly, I don't buy the whole API lag behind thing. Sure there will be some lag, but if the developers $want to$ and they have the man power they'll keep up at a "good enough" pace. Open source lags more because it lacks interested and talented developers more than anything else.

    Open source OpenGL development, for example, lags way behind while the closed source offerings are supporting the new OpenGL stuff days after the standard drops. NVidia doesn't have a problem keeping up with the new GLs and D3Ds.

    Adobe is sporting "optimization" for the yet to be released IE9 in Flash. Browsers are pushing some HTML5 support despite it not yet being a standard. Samba is doing just fine and works great. Despite the supposedly crippling API lag, there are plenty of examples of keeping up well enough.

    If there are enough $interested$ developers around the API in question they seem to keep up just fine.

    The real reasons for the lag are lack of interested developers and the fact that many of these projects did not start development until after they were years behind in the first place. Some projects may have the developer power to maintain the pace, but don't have the development force to get over the initial hump.

    Where there's $interest$ there's a lot less lag. There's also a lot of backwards compatibility that can be floated on while you "play catchup."

    Show me a case of "has enough $interested$ developers" that also "lags behind the API." The truth is, you probably can't find the former to prove the latter is chiefly to blame. It's impossible to say that the API lag is to blame when so many other issues exist and are probably higher up on the blame chain.

    Yes API lag is an issue, but I don't buy that it's nearly the destroyer of worlds many make it out to be. Your FUD would be better if you said "sets up for patent trap" or "will never have the developer bucks." At lest then it would be more on the money (pun intended).

    Are there projects that aren't developer starved that can't keep up? Lets just define "developer starved" as having significantly fewer man hours from skilled developers than what was/is available to the originating API development effort. What's really going on here?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by NoEffex View Post
      The millions of windows/mac users don't care lol. This has nothing to do with Linux. Saying that they should adopt something open source doesn't apply because it's not linux/bsd/etc. Besides open source stuff that changes often (Open source really has become synonymous with change these days...I had to edit this post because I was using them interchangeably).
      It doesn't matter if they do or do not care. For them, it will make no difference.

      A lot of products take years to develop. So, if it's relying on an API that changes, it's just not viable. I can't think of anything that doesn't change/break things regularly.
      TOTALLY irrelevant.

      You have COMPLETELY failed to read my point.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
        It doesn't matter if they do or do not care. For them, it will make no difference.


        TOTALLY irrelevant.

        You have COMPLETELY failed to read my point.
        First paragraph or maybe sentence has anything to do with your post. The rest was directed at this thread/at my frustrations with developing using constantly-changing APIs.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by NoEffex View Post
          First paragraph or maybe sentence has anything to do with your post. The rest was directed at this thread/at my frustrations with developing using constantly-changing APIs.
          As someone who works with .NET at work, I can tell you that the API churn there is incredible. And I think everyone is aware of how often OSX has changed APIs and how difficult it has been to switch from Carbon to Cocoa. So i find complaints about Linux APIs changing too much to be a little humorous.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
            As someone who works with .NET at work, I can tell you that the API churn there is incredible. And I think everyone is aware of how often OSX has changed APIs and how difficult it has been to switch from Carbon to Cocoa. So i find complaints about Linux APIs changing too much to be a little humorous.
            Their changes are calculated and planned..linux changes heavily every release.

            I'm not talking about OS X because quite honestly I dislike Apple more than anything (ESPECIALLY for mixing Mach, a notoriously slow microkernel with FreeBSD, the less-known equal to Linux).

            The BSDs are pretty good with keeping their releases as API-compatible as possible. Rather than just update and try to keep up they are opportunistic and update when necessary, which is how it should be done. In fact, for a time (Perhaps still the case) some modules were compatible with both FreeBSD and OpenBSD or NetBSD, and of course don't forget about the totally-awesome DragonFlyBSD (That makes me feel all fuzzy inside that someone is FINALLY trying to get rid of the traditional monolithic kernel without reverting to a really slow microkernel).

            It probably has something to do with my frustrations with Fedora. Ahh..the good old days of breaking every two minutes. CentOS is all-right in that they update when necessary (errr, RHEL).

            Back to Apple..Apple is the worst along with Adobe. They straight do not update their old software and bring new features i.e. new versions of java that aren't available for the older releases, which is garbage. On windows and probably most linux distros (In fact, all the way back to windows 2k) I can install the latest Java release. Just using it as an example. Apple drops old releases like they're hot then charges ungodly cash to upgrade. I dislike Microsoft as well (Not gonna say hate because I can only hate so many companies at once..Apple and Oracle take priority) but Windows is all-right for my purposes.

            tl;dr: Apple sucks. Oracle sucks. Lets stone them.

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            • #21
              Fail Transgaming...

              They take Linux users money and then use it to fund games for MAC (while not bring commercial box games to linux ...)

              You only get "good support" (ie boilerplate fixes) if you play what is the top5 games (which changes month by month). If your game isn't in that list and a bug occurs no fix...

              And now more linux funds used for windows Gee Fucking Gee...

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              • #22
                Originally posted by NoEffex View Post
                ...Not gonna say hate because I can only hate so many companies at once..Apple and Oracle take priority...
                At least, Apple and Oracle doesn't treat free software as public enemy. They even contribute some of the greatest open-source projects I know of today. And Apple has just taken Flash and Java out of their Mac platform for good. Now people who wants these security breached shitty proprietary software will have to download from Adobe/Oracle website just like windows users have to. Apple is recommending people to use HTML5 and other free web standard APIs instead of these deprecated software platforms.

                While Microsoft still thinks open-source is the devil. (they just don't admit it publicly anymore, but they still think it, I know)

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                • #23
                  Adobe has always been Sony's Betamax and MiniDisc; deaperately trying to own the market with fonts and shit like Flash.

                  If they open source Flash then they can no longer de the sole creation vendor of Flash. Simple...

                  Adobe is as horrible as Microsoft!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jntesteves View Post
                    At least, Apple and Oracle doesn't treat free software as public enemy.
                    (...)
                    While Microsoft still thinks open-source is the devil. (they just don't admit it publicly anymore, but they still think it, I know)
                    Maybe you didn't read this thread: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26436

                    Well, Apple does make CUPS and is in charge of x.org server 1.9. The only real problem I have with flash right now is that it crashes at least 10 times every minute... or something like that. It also makes my netbook feel slower than a 486 with 4MB of ram running windows 7. It's also stupid to use vector animation software to display movies.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by V!NCENT View Post
                      Adobe has always been Sony's Betamax and MiniDisc; deaperately trying to own the market with fonts and shit like Flash.

                      If they open source Flash then they can no longer de the sole creation vendor of Flash. Simple...

                      Adobe is as horrible as Microsoft!
                      Flash is their platform. It's not an open standard per say.

                      Rather than bitch about it not being open..move on like everyone else is doing..html5 is catching on. Once youtube completely moves then it'll just be a matter of time because quite honestly that's the primary user of flash.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by devius View Post
                        Yes, I read that thread last week or so. I fail to see where it goes agains what I said? Maybe a specific reply?

                        Originally posted by devius View Post
                        Well, Apple does make CUPS and is in charge of x.org server 1.9.
                        LLVM, GCC and, most importantly, Webkit, which drove the web to compete at a whole new level of quality, speed and standards compliance. Firefox4 is only geting as good as it is because Webkit is around, slowly eating their market. Without Webkit Chromium would never have seen the light of a day.

                        You know, as near as five years from now, most of our apps will be web based. So, that is the most important technology to put money on now. That's why Adobe won't give up Flash, ever.

                        Originally posted by devius View Post
                        The only real problem I have with flash right now is that it crashes at least 10 times every minute... or something like that. It also makes my netbook feel slower than a 486 with 4MB of ram running windows 7. It's also stupid to use vector animation software to display movies.
                        There are bigger problems with Flash that software developers understand a lil better. 1 example:
                        There's only one full implementation and it's proprietary and from a company that has a monopoly of almost all of the markets it competes on. Now THAT's a problem!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jntesteves View Post
                          LLVM, GCC and, most importantly, Webkit, which drove the web to compete at a whole new level of quality, speed and standards compliance.
                          Ehh, no GCC is definately NOT Apple's. Webkit is a fork of KHTML so it's not as if they created it from scratch, also LLVM is not made by Apple, although they are certainly the largest (only?) corporate contributor as it stands.

                          As for flash, I certainly have no love for it either. Here's hoping HTML5 and webm manages to wrestle away parts of flash's market. Open source based standards benefit competition, and competition brings better end products. Monopolies on the other hand sure as hell don't.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                            Ehh, no GCC is definately NOT Apple's. Webkit is a fork of KHTML so it's not as if they created it from scratch, also LLVM is not made by Apple, although they are certainly the largest (only?) corporate contributor as it stands.
                            Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. GCC is not an Apple project, of course, but they use it and they do contribute code back uptream.
                            But LLVM, frankly, Apple is the one paying everybody that works on it fulltime. But big and core open-source projects like those don't "belong" to any single institution as they really shouldn't. Not like some other enterprises who think they can own open-source projects forever. (cough, sun, cough)

                            Apple (back in 2001!) started Webkit from KHTML's codebase, but, saying that today it IS KHTML with a couple Apple patches is far from truth. With help from Apple, Google and many independent contributors it became a bigger project. KHTML did the harder work of starting it all, but, today Webkit > KHTML.

                            Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                            As for flash, I certainly have no love for it either. Here's hoping HTML5 and webm manages to wrestle away parts of flash's market. Open source based standards benefit competition, and competition brings better end products. Monopolies on the other hand sure as hell don't.
                            All the main pieces are in place now for HTML5 to blast Flash's market:
                            audio and video elements, audio API (FF4), SVG + SMIL, MathML, canvas element, WebGL (+ typed arrays as an very welcome extra), touch API, local storage, Indexed DB, @fonts, CSS transforms.
                            But a lot is still missing, like: audio and video input (mic, cam), miscellaneous input events (gamepad), video API.

                            We are getting there faster than the speed of light, thanks to Gecko's and Webkit's contributors.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jntesteves View Post
                              Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. GCC is not an Apple project, of course, but they use it and they do contribute code back uptream.
                              Apple used to contribute back to GCC, but that stopped a while ago. When they switched to the GPLv3 license. Apple decided to fund LLVM instead.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jntesteves View Post
                                We are getting there faster than the speed of light, thanks to Gecko's and Webkit's contributors.
                                Music to my ears, so I really hope you're right

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