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Upset that my school is now a "success story" for migration to Windows

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Vince DiStasi
    As opposed to the Linux cluster, where I have to download packages from all over the place to make it work[...]
    One thing I hate mostly is IDIOT THAT DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE/SHE'S TALKING ABOUT...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RealNC View Post
      I didn't. Everything was where I expected it to be. People I know also didn't have real difficulties. Everything is explained in the dialogs in a way everyone understands and only very little help from me was needed.
      From YOUR Point of View, Yes. From broader perspective, NO!!, my dear friends. While I don't know much about windows 7, I can fix/find what I need to do/search what need to be done. Usually I've done it within a couple minutes. So do you, and many other member/poster/reader at Phoronix. Why? Cause they/we are POWER USER. So, please don't place yourself--or, for example, micheal, svartalf, mugginz, kano, etc--on their (average joe) place. FYI, Most'o my friend find it difficult when they migrate from XP to Vista/7. And THEY'RE really-trully average joe. THERE IS LEARNING CURVE..

      Originally posted by RealNC View Post
      So does Windows. Again, nothing here offered by Gnome that Windows users don't already have.
      Character Map, no? (didn't check it on 7, but windows XP didn't have it. CMIIW)

      Originally posted by RealNC View Post
      Yes, since it's easier to use. And besides, you assume that people jump to the latest MS Office instead of keeping their current one. And if they don't, and really prefer OpenOffice, I must inform you that OpenOffice works in Windows just fine. Why switch to Linux for OpenOffice if you can have it in Windows too? There's no reason to.
      Many of my friends use pirating Windows. That's why. So, I'm more than happy if they want to switch to linux. From moral and ethical perspective. Other than that, I'm glad they can use their computer.


      Originally posted by RealNC View Post
      I helped people go to W7 too. Also tried to make some of them use Linux (Ubuntu and OpenSUSE.) They kept Windows and were seeking help removing the Linux partition and reclaim the disk space. About 95% of all people I helped didn't like Linux and preferred Windows 7. The only thing they liked about Linux were the wobbly windows. Everything else they found pretty lame.
      Well, ignorance is a bliss. "Human compete for unhappines/suffering," right? This is one of the example (they know the risk when using micro$oft product, but still use it).

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      • #33
        In a perhaps vain effort to re-rail this thread, I will attempt to reply to some of the more pertinent responses.

        Yes, the state of graphics drivers in Linux is pretty bad, but that's because we're in a period of transition. I think once we have working Gallium3D drivers for major GPUs things will improve very quickly. Right now, things just work with OSS drivers (e.g. I can play Nexuiz fine and use virtually everything else except kwin compositing, which seems to be pathological). Wine support is very tricky and often involves wine devs as well as driver devs fixing stuff (a lot of wine3D is hacked around idiosyncrasies of the closed drivers).

        As for people not having time, I'm aware that not everyone has an interest in learning how to use a new OS, but some of us already know how to learn Linux, and some people are genuinely interested. I can do a number of things *a lot* more efficiently on Linux than on Windows, so I find it implausible that Linux offers no benefits except as a hobby, or a cheapskate solution.

        I'm not opposed to the school using Windows where it makes sense, but they're also using it where it patently doesn't. I'm webmaster for a student organization, and instead of a LAMP stack to work with, I have to play with IIS and Sharepoint, neither of which I know or have any real desire to learn.

        They also make things difficult for students who run Linux: classes here use software such as Mathematica and Matlab, but the college only offers Windows and OSX copies, with no Linux versions. I'm going to work on getting that changed, but there are a lot of other issues.

        DyKnow, for example. It is Windows-exclusive software that is required for a number of classes, and yet superior alternatives exist that are available cross-platform. Words cannot convey the vileness that is DyKnow. It is essentially a rootkit, and the biggest privacy and security violation I have ever seen condoned.

        A side note regarding people not having time to learn Linux: for some, it's part of their major. Computer Science majors who take OS (all of them) are required to learn some of the internals of the Linux kernel, but many have never even used Linux before that. Also, in a lot of places, it's hard to be taken seriously as a Computer Information Systems person if you don't have some knowledge of Linux system administration.

        Bottom line: Linux is a serious OS, used in the real world to solve real problems, and I want it to be taken seriously here, and be a practical choice.

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        • #34
          In addition, I have found that using Linux enables me to get work done a lot more effectively with fewer distractions.

          I wrote my last paper with vim and LaTeX on the Linux shell without a window manager or desktop environment loaded. It's an environment that not only allowed me to produce a very nicely formatted paper with a minimum of hassle, it also presented no distractions (web browser with Facebook, e-mail client getting mail, etc.) to actually writing, making me far more productive and focused than I have been in the past.

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          • #35
            Must concur with TechMage89. I find that given a pre-setup Linux desktop and some superficial tutelage a novice computer users who sits in front of a screen solely just to get something done and with no interest in the how/what/wherefore of the platform can achieve their ends just as they would on a Windows machine. About the same level of tutelage they'd require on the Windows box. There are some commonly trotted out corner cases where Windows is a better option (games, just to name one) but if a Linux desktop will easily fulfil a users' requirements and do it without the exposure to malware then that in itself can be beneficial in my book.

            I've been reading in the computer press for too many decades now just how we must all abandon any platform not created by Microsoft for if we don't we'll never get anything of value accomplished. It's utter rubbish of course but I guess if you're Microsoft and have enough money and man power to throw at publicity, be it in adds or free resources to convince people to switch platforms and where it's shown to work to a degree I see no time in the future they'll abandon their tactics.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
              I can imagine the list of schools using Windows is about a thousand times bigger :P
              Yes, but the link I gave shows Linux is ready for schools. :P

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              • #37
                I don't get these comments about linux being "hard to learn". For starters, if there are drivers for the hardware and they are working correctly (ok, you can stop reading here and start typing you answer saying that fglrx and pulseaudio (anyone mentioned this already?) suck), what's there to learn? If a user has already used windows and knows that clicking on the little pictures opens programs for them to work on, what else do they need to learn?

                There are also file managers, web browsers, email clients, office suites, etc., that work very much like their windows counterparts.

                As as example I have my mom that doesn't even know very well what windows and office are but had no problems working in a pc with Fedora. She could open files, insert usb flash disks and copy files to and from the hard drive, open firefox and browse the web, write documents (both writer and calc) in openoffice, etc, and not once did she complain about having to "learn" anything.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by devius View Post
                  I don't get these comments about linux being "hard to learn".
                  Mostly neither do I.

                  As someone who has had to support users of Windows machines I've found anyone willing to pay for my time usually aren't in a position to fix their current install or re-install a fresh one. Instead of learning how to do so they prefer to simply pay for someone else to make it all better.

                  There's a lot of people assuming that anyone wanting to use Linux must also be capable of installation and maintenance of a Linux install. Would it not be more normal to expect a user to pay to have a professional fix or install a Linux desktop as well. Clearly where there is no Linux help available then by all means choose Windows, but where Linux help is available to a user I see no reason for them not to consider it an viable option.

                  System maintenance aside, actually driving a properly setup Linux desktop is a breeze for a lot of use cases.

                  If Windows was so fault free then I'd like it explained to me why so many people are kept in employment tinkering with Windows boxes.

                  I don't think for one second Linux is the end all solution for all of computings' woes but it does get painted as something it's not by an awful lot of people who believe they're computer experts that really should know better. A lot of people who want to assert they're quite smart with computers seem to be awfully quick to turn to jelly once they're away from Windows and looking at an alternative platform, be that BSD, Linux, OSX, etc. I see fear of an unknown platform motivating decisions more than reality, which is quite a shame.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by mugginz View Post
                    Would it not be more normal to expect a user to pay to have a professional fix or install a Linux desktop as well. Clearly where there is no Linux help available then by all means choose Windows, but where Linux help is available to a user I see no reason for them not to consider it an viable option.
                    Hey, that's a good idea. I wonder if I can start a local linux related maintenance business

                    PS: If windows is so flawless why are there so many companies living off tech support for software (windows) related issues? In fact, most tech support hotlines and such only deal with windows issues, and some already realized that MACOS also exists and has a user base which needs help as well.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by devius View Post
                      Hey, that's a good idea. I wonder if I can start a local linux related maintenance business
                      Or at least incorporate it into a current Windows based one perhaps. :-)

                      I must say that I don't mind someone saying they don't know Linux so therefore can't support it but I do have a problem with someone who doesn't know Linux rubbishing it not because it's really rubbish, but because they want to avoid it due to holes in their own knowledge base.

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                      • #41
                        I have a brand new success story. Someone wanted to try out Linux with KDE. So he installed Kubuntu 10.10.

                        And the phail starts.

                        He installed HoN, but it doesn't run. No error message, no nothing. He phoned me to help him. I know how to use a terminal though. Indeed, starting HoN from the K menu doesn't work. Of course, linux distros in their infinite wisdom do not show anything when a program doesn't start; no error message, no error dialog, nothing. They just leave the user out in the cold, wondering what the hell is happening.

                        So I started it from a terminal:

                        Code:
                        warning: The VAD has been replaced by a hack pending a complete rewrite
                        X Error of failed request: BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)
                        Major opcode of failed request: 155 (RANDR)
                        Minor opcode of failed request: 7 (RRSetScreenSize)
                        Value in failed request: 0xa00
                        Serial number of failed request: 81
                        Current serial number in output stream: 82
                        Kubuntu installed fglrx for his HD4850 just fine, mind you.

                        Then, the other thing that user needs: Mumble. But the push-to-talk key in the Linux version interferes with everything else. In windows it has a setting to "ignore" it. No such setting in Linux.

                        Oh, how leet. Yes, Linux. It's ready for the masses.

                        Excuse me while I go outside and laugh for a bit. Needless to say, I told him to go back to Windows 7. Which he did. Another happy user who will spread the word about Linux and how well it works.

                        Yes, I'm trolling, but I am right.

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                        • #42
                          Linux is ready for the masses that don't use mumble or play games like HoN.

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                          • #43
                            Or use MSN video chat (aMSN tells him that video is disabled due to M$ protocol blablahs), or want to use a microphone (I needed to open a terminal and run alsamixer because there's no way unmute the mic in Kubuntu from any of the GUI mixers).

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                              Having your box break after every Ubuntu kernel security update (happens every time) because fglrx won't work anymore [...]
                              Uh? That's way beyond illiteracy...

                              Also completely irrelevant in the context of an educational environment. If the admin lets students poke around kernel upgrades, no amount of OS bells and whistles can save that poor university...

                              Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                              Someone wanted to try out Linux with KDE. So he installed Kubuntu 10.10.
                              (Warning for gratuitous bashing) The "phail" started right there

                              On a more serious note... Looks like the screen hasn't been properly configured for HoN, but yeah, whatever, has to be fglrx right?

                              No effort what so ever... And still wondering why people "prefer" going back to windows... Heh.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                                Oh, how leet. Yes, Linux. It's ready for the masses.

                                Excuse me while I go outside and laugh for a bit. Needless to say, I told him to go back to Windows 7. Which he did. Another happy user who will spread the word about Linux and how well it works.

                                Yes, I'm trolling, but I am right.
                                Yes you are trolling and no you are not right.

                                Tell me RealNC, why should I rule out Linux as an option for a user who doesn't use and has no need for MSN or Windows games?

                                When someone brings up that they want to run games, Windows is my automatic recommendation but not everyone does their gaming on a PC and not everyone plays video games for that matter.

                                Where Linux will fulfil a users requirements and provide a greatly reduced attack surface with respect to malware, why should I not present it as one of a range of options where it's appropriate?

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