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  • #46
    Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
    I can do a lot on a system without X. Not so much without init. Besides, X was originally an MIT creation while systemd is de-facto a Red Hat creation. Do you feel the difference?
    Systemd is not preventing you from using your own init system. It just doesn't make sense to have support for many init systems in udev, pam, X sessions. These more complex use cases usually need whole lot of funtionality that only systemd can provide (see the chart previously in this thread). If you want some minimal embedded system, you can still get it, but without udev and dbus and X support. Don't know if the system boots that well currently. Maybe you need to turn off bootsplash and initramfs too. The other init systems just don't support hotplugging devices so well or these X session "seats".

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    • #47
      Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
      I hope they make it a hard dependency.
      You hope that anything non-linux (and even non-systemd) will not be able to run xorg in future? (the *bsd's for example)

      The major problem with systemd is that it is not portable. It encourage people to do their own thing and compete rather than re-use and contribute.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by scottishduck View Post
        Whatever shall we do if the userland becomes coherent rather than the total clusterfuck it is currently.

        Oh the tragedy.
        The systemd style "if you don't agree with our values, then do your own thing" does not contribute to a more coherent userland. Unfortunally it does the opposite.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by caligula View Post
          I wonder why all the systemd hate. Sometimes you need to politically force a technically superior technology.
          Because what is "superior" depends on your values. What is most important: cheap? small form factor? fast? portable? profitable? stability?

          What do you think happens if someone try politically force their values on people who have different? People get frustrated and angry.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by ncopa View Post
            Because what is "superior" depends on your values. What is most important: cheap? small form factor? fast? portable? profitable? stability?

            What do you think happens if someone try politically force their values on people who have different? People get frustrated and angry.
            Systemd boots fastest. Some argue it's bloated, but in reality if you consider running init scripts with bash, it's one of the most bloated shells and contains tons of inefficient code. I'd be happier with scripts if the interpreter did JIT, but I doubt bash does. So the only good arguments against systemd are a) don't like Lennart b) not yet support for BSD c) written in compiled language d) minor bugs to be fixed e) political drama with Canonical.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by kigurai View Post
              build your own systemd-free system.
              This is what I am doing. But it is getting harder because there are fewer and fewer components I can re-use.

              People used to be proud of having their code portable and sharable. Its sad thats no longer the case.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by caligula View Post
                The problem with alternatives is the lack of good audio sink switching capability. ALSA supports switching the recording device, but not output device unless you have a special HDMI capable hardware with many HDMI ports. Then it lets you pick the port dynamically. My only solution is to output audio to all devices if I don't use PulseAudio. PulseAudio doesn't work well if you also don't run systemd, dbus and soon kdbus.
                So what you are saying is: Because I have the need to run Pulseaudio in my configuration it should be mandatory for anyone else to also use Pulseaudio. And because I propose that Pulseaudio works best with systemd (by the way, I have no problems to use it on systemd-free systems) everyone else should be forced to use systemd.

                Happily, that is not how it works.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by TAXI View Post
                  I know this wasn't serious, but still:

                  OSS and alsa is useless, but pulseaudio could work.
                  Pulseaudio is fine for things like playing back music/videos or playing wooshy sounds on startup.

                  If you need anything with low latencies, it becomes worse than useless - actually an obstacle. Every serious audio application on Linux considers PA a joke or afterthought, and uses either ALSA or Jack as main audio backends.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by caligula View Post
                    The problem with alternatives is the lack of good audio sink switching capability. ALSA supports switching the recording device, but not output device unless you have a special HDMI capable hardware with many HDMI ports. Then it lets you pick the port dynamically. My only solution is to output audio to all devices if I don't use PulseAudio. PulseAudio doesn't work well if you also don't run systemd, dbus and soon kdbus.
                    Thing is, you're projecting your needs on the whole community. While audio switching and multi-seat are valid needs for you, they are not for everyone, and especially not if they force other tradeoffs. You advocated for your convenience over the convenience of others.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by curaga View Post
                      Thing is, you're projecting your needs on the whole community. While audio switching and multi-seat are valid needs for you, they are not for everyone, and especially not if they force other tradeoffs. You advocated for your convenience over the convenience of others.
                      You're right, but I don't see this as a problem. Most Linux users are desktop users and want a good desktop experience. You all know the "Is this the year of desktop Linux?" jokes. Linux will never be ready for desktop unless some things are forced. These features require tons of testing. For example PulseAudio is buggy and apparently the zero-copying API does not work if some guys here complain about latencies that are better with JACK. We need to dogfood users with broken mandatory desktop features to make them work in the coming years. After the initial pain it all will work flawlessly. It just requires huge amount of work on all fronts.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by dee. View Post
                        Pulseaudio is fine for things like playing back music/videos or playing wooshy sounds on startup.

                        If you need anything with low latencies, it becomes worse than useless - actually an obstacle. Every serious audio application on Linux considers PA a joke or afterthought, and uses either ALSA or Jack as main audio backends.
                        But you have to understand that mainstream distro will be targeted at media consumers first and audio professionals second.
                        If you use a serious audio application then use bare Alsa, or even better, Jack, and it's all good. Pulse just makes more sense as the default, that's all.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by ncopa View Post
                          This is what I am doing. But it is getting harder because there are fewer and fewer components I can re-use.

                          People used to be proud of having their code portable and sharable. Its sad thats no longer the case.
                          People used to be proud of having their code pander to the lowest common denominator? Because there is a reason why systemd doesn't work on BSDs, and it's the lack of proper kernel features required for the functionality.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by rudregues View Post
                            Good but not enough, I want:
                            - OSS, alsa and pulseaudio systemd integration
                            - X11, Wayland and Mir systemd integration
                            - KDE, Gnome, XFCE, E19, Mate, LXDE and Unity systemd integration
                            - More systemd integration in the kernel (better if systemd makes part of it)
                            - OpenRC, Sysvinit and Upstart systemd integration
                            - Steam OS and Valve games systemd integration
                            - gmail systemd integration
                            - polkit, consolekit, PAM, dbus, udev and eudev systemd integration
                            - systemd as default requirement for any GNU/Linux (this case user must use systemd) and optional for GNU/Hurd and *BSD (this case the user can choose between using or not)
                            - Raspberry Pi support

                            Well, let's do some feature request in bugzilla!!!
                            Systemd is all good!!! It's better than Linus projects (I think people call it "Linux").
                            I 100% agree!
                            we also need: bash, sh, rc, (d)ash systemd integration
                            forced systemd for plan9, minix, hurd, *bsd, solaris, aix, windows, emacs
                            sudo, gcc, llvm, clang, su, grep, grub, ls, echo, cat, vi(m), ed, acme, nano etc... systemd integration
                            x86, SPARC, ARM, IA64, MIPS, alpha systemd integration and systemd instructions
                            firefox, chrom(e/ium), netsurf, w3m(.el), lynx systemd integration
                            BSD and GPL license systemd integration
                            C, C++, D, ALGOL, FORTRAN, Haskal, F#, C#, Erlang, Scala, Java, Perl5, Perl6, Perl9, python, ruby, javascript, brainfuck, etc... systemd integration

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                            • #59
                              well... I guess XFree86 isn't a bad idea after all

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                                Pulseaudio is fine for things like playing back music/videos or playing wooshy sounds on startup.

                                If you need anything with low latencies, it becomes worse than useless - actually an obstacle. Every serious audio application on Linux considers PA a joke or afterthought, and uses either ALSA or Jack as main audio backends.
                                Can you please provide a link to quantitatively tested use case that backs up your issue with latency?

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