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  • #31
    Bozley, go back under a bridge where you belong.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by dee. View Post
      Bozley, go back under a bridge where you belong.
      i found a pic of Bozley

      http://insertyourmeme.com/wp-content...esome-fail.jpg

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      • #33
        Originally posted by BO$$
        The glorious Canonical devs will make Mir work with the proprietary graphics drivers. Can't say the same for the wayland amateurs.
        You still get it backwards, seems that you are resistant to learning. The Wayland developers are those with years of experience in developing display servers, so they are the pros, while the Mir developers are those with no experience, hence the amateurs.
        You may also have missed the part that both, Mir and Wayland, run on EGL drivers (while you can use a different backend on Wayland), so if the driver comes for one it will be usable by the other.
        I know that learning or backing up your claims with facts is something you aren't able to, but if you try really hard maybe someday you will.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by alanc View Post
          I don't know why I even bother explaining things when people hallucinate to think the complete opposite to be true.
          Sorry Alan, chalk that one off to wishful thinking . I haven't hallucinated since I did a 72+ hour marathon on Nettrek back in 1994 via telnet over a 56k modem PPP connection to our university server... lack of sleep will do that to you.... though I've heard LSD lets one bend spacetime too.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by MartinN View Post
            Sorry Alan, chalk that one off to wishful thinking . I haven't hallucinated since I did a 72+ hour marathon on Nettrek back in 1994 via telnet over a 56k modem PPP connection to our university server... lack of sleep will do that to you.... though I've heard LSD lets one bend spacetime too.
            No, it just makes it swirlier.

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            • #36
              Radeon is a "real driver" right now, Nouveau is waiting mostly on power management

              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              Until there are video drivers it's pie in the sky.



              (And I'm talking real video drivers.)
              OK, my AMD HD6750 does not support OpenGL versions above 3.3, most of which Radeon has now. Right now I've got excellent GPU power management, usable with the UVD block running for VDPAU video. That card would play 1080P video with this driver on any dual core, possibly a single-core if I had one with a PCI-e slot.

              With the exact same card on Catalyst a year ago,, Scorched 3d never showed more than 106FPS at 1080p with AA maxed out on the lightest screens. The maximum Scorched3d framerate now with the open Radeon driver, again at 1080p, again with AA maxed out, again with full power management, is about 86 FPS. The monitor is 60FPS, so that's more than I can display.

              Don't have much OpenCL support yet, but few Linux applications I've seen support it either. Blender does not, and MLT bypassed it using shader languange directly. That's coming in Kdenlive soon, is in Shotcut now. OpenCL support is a Mesa issue, not a Radeon issue, and it is growing as we speak. Within a year or so the RadeonSI driver for the newer cards should catch up, for both 7000 and 8000 series cards.

              All that leaves is Crossfire, which few native Linux applications can ever make use of. The current "Reverse Optimus" work may lead to Crossfire on Radeon down the road-or AMD might decide to do a crossfire code dump so they can deprecate their closed Catalyst driver and be done with it.

              As for Intel, their open driver is considered second only to the closed NVIDIA driver for quality, but runs on smaller, less capable hardware than Radeon or NVIDIA. This leaves only Nvidia cards as having a driver issue- and that gets fixed whenever someone manages to make power management work. If you lock the Radeon driver to a clock speed comparable to what a comparable Nvidia card boots at, you get comparable FPS in Scorched3d and in Critter. I've tested this myself banchmarking the Radeon HD6750 against the GTX450, with the AMD card locked to the "mid" profile on the old style power management. Might be slightly slower now, but Nouveau too has come a long way in a year-like from 11-18 to 33+FPS in Scorched3d on the GTX 450, while slowed down by lack
              of reclocking and running at a cool 40 C or so the rest of the time, little if any hotter under load.

              By the time Wayland and Mir are supported directly by most applications, I suspect that proprietary drivers for AMD and Nvidia cards will both be a thing of the past as far as most users are concerned. Yes, if you are running four Titans that might be another story, but how many of us can afford that setup or its electrical consumption?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Luke View Post
                By the time Wayland and Mir are supported directly by most applications, I suspect that proprietary drivers for AMD and Nvidia cards will both be a thing of the past as far as most users are concerned.
                I love you guys, but sometimes I wonder what world you live in.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by johnc View Post
                  I love you guys, but sometimes I wonder what world you live in.
                  I only disagree with him in that nVidia will never support an OSS driver and they will cling onto their proprietary driver for as long as they possibly can. Otherwise I agree with him completely.

                  If you have any AMD card or APU that is supported by r600g or any Intel APU right now you get damn good support. That's not a dream world. It's a fact. If you want well supported hardware on linux, then you have to buy well supported hardware.
                  Last edited by duby229; 08-12-2013, 07:51 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by johnc View Post
                    I love you guys, but sometimes I wonder what world you live in.
                    In the world in which Red Hat tells their customers that they will go to Wayland in the future (my guess, RHEL 8 will have it as default) and the Red Hat customers with their expensive workstation cards ask Nvidia/AMD for drivers, which will simply deliver what their customers need. Once there are Wayland drivers you will get Mir driver automatically.

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                    • #40
                      What world do I livce in?

                      Originally posted by johnc View Post
                      I love you guys, but sometimes I wonder what world you live in.
                      One in which I have directly verified the claims I made concerning the current performance of the
                      Radeon driver on my own system, and enjoyed the fruits of those two huge code dumps by AMD.
                      Some say AMD's sudden interest in the open driver implies an effort to emulate Intel's strategy
                      of closed driver for Windoze, separate open driver for Linux. When RadeonSI gets as good as
                      R600g, I would not want to be an Nvidia salesman...

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Luke View Post
                        Some say AMD's sudden interest in the open driver implies an effort to emulate Intel's strategy
                        of closed driver for Windoze, separate open driver for Linux.
                        Just curious, what is this "sudden interest" you're talking about ? Work on UVD (and radeonSI) started in 2011, and power management even before that.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          OK, make that sudden results

                          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                          Just curious, what is this "sudden interest" you're talking about ? Work on UVD (and radeonSI) started in 2011, and power management even before that.
                          Are you referring to work inside AMD to get the code "cleaned," cleared, and released, or to parallel efforts like the old style power management and VDPAU decode on the shaders? I was using old-style "profile" power management since late Spring 2012.

                          The UVD code drop, like the power management code drop, was something I wasn't really counting on. Everyone said it was held up behind corporate lawyers, nobody knew if it would ever come out. Then these two long-desired items came out at intervals of a month. I don't know whether someone told programmers to find and strip out every last piece of 3ed party patented DRM hooks that could cause issues, told third party copyright holders to either give permission or never get another contract/job from AMD, or what, but the close timing of two code drops that had both been bottled up behind lawyers just seemed to me like someone decided to get damned serious.

                          Those code drops didn't change openGL performance on older cards that boot to full speed, but they sure as hell made power management easier to use-and automatic power management made VDPAU practical to use, as setting a "low" manual profile didn't leave enough power to play a 1080p video on the UVD block, yet was enough for all desktop activities. I don't have any APU machines, but I saw Phoronix stories that made them sound like Nvidia cards when running open drivers due to old style PM not working combined with booting to low GPU clocks-just like Fermi on Nouveau. Now all that has been changed.

                          It would have taken longer, maybe a lot longer, to reverse engineer both UVD and power management with no prior knowledge of the algorithms the hardware had been designed to use. The previous power management worked, but in Dynpm mode flashed the display. It also used more power in low mode than the new way does on dpm, probably as it had only clock setting and not clock gating support. I'm curious about how long people would have waited for that support from AMD before someone threw in the towel and put in the long hours it would have no doubt taken to make old-school dynpm work? As for the UVD block, I remember predictions that DRM code would make that permanently unreleasable, and that only shader decoding was likely to ever be supported. Now even Nouveau is getting video decode support.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Luke View Post
                            Are you referring to work inside AMD to get the code "cleaned," cleared, and released, or to parallel efforts like the old style power management and VDPAU decode on the shaders? I was using old-style "profile" power management since late Spring 2012.

                            The UVD code drop, like the power management code drop, was something I wasn't really counting on. Everyone said it was held up behind corporate lawyers, nobody knew if it would ever come out. Then these two long-desired items came out at intervals of a month. I don't know whether someone told programmers to find and strip out every last piece of 3ed party patented DRM hooks that could cause issues, told third party copyright holders to either give permission or never get another contract/job from AMD, or what, but the close timing of two code drops that had both been bottled up behind lawyers just seemed to me like someone decided to get damned serious.

                            Those code drops didn't change openGL performance on older cards that boot to full speed, but they sure as hell made power management easier to use-and automatic power management made VDPAU practical to use, as setting a "low" manual profile didn't leave enough power to play a 1080p video on the UVD block, yet was enough for all desktop activities. I don't have any APU machines, but I saw Phoronix stories that made them sound like Nvidia cards when running open drivers due to old style PM not working combined with booting to low GPU clocks-just like Fermi on Nouveau. Now all that has been changed.

                            It would have taken longer, maybe a lot longer, to reverse engineer both UVD and power management with no prior knowledge of the algorithms the hardware had been designed to use. The previous power management worked, but in Dynpm mode flashed the display. It also used more power in low mode than the new way does on dpm, probably as it had only clock setting and not clock gating support. I'm curious about how long people would have waited for that support from AMD before someone threw in the towel and put in the long hours it would have no doubt taken to make old-school dynpm work? As for the UVD block, I remember predictions that DRM code would make that permanently unreleasable, and that only shader decoding was likely to ever be supported. Now even Nouveau is getting video decode support.
                            I'm sure he'll respond to you himself, but Bridgman has told me in the past, (Or rather I probably just read it here somewhere on this forum) that it wasn't so much about lawyers as it was about code review. AMD has a number of developers that they pay directly to work on the radeon driver. Plus there are independent developers that help a lot. This is all new code. None of it was once proprietary. So it had to be peer reviewed before release so that everyone involved could get their opinions in on how it should work. That took some time to put together. Meanwhile there were a lot of other things going on like learning the hardware and getting documentation in a format that could be released. In addition everyone always expected that the end result would accumulate into same day launch support of the OSS drivers. They are mostly caught up on that, but still have a ways to go.

                            I do think internally the guys working on the OSS drivers do have a much stronger leg to stand on recently. I think that is going to result in very good things for all of AMD's (linux) customers
                            Last edited by duby229; 08-13-2013, 12:16 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                              Just curious, what is this "sudden interest" you're talking about ? Work on UVD (and radeonSI) started in 2011, and power management even before that.
                              Didn't you notice that you got a few new colleagues in the last few months?

                              Intel has a special Android version that uses Mesa. I don't know if Luke means the same but I'm pretty certain that AMD wants to go the same route. Intel does the Android–Mesa work anyway, so why not strengthen AMD's Mesa drivers. I'm sure that's cheaper than porting Catalyst to Android.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                                You still get it backwards, seems that you are resistant to learning. The Wayland developers are those with years of experience in developing display servers, so they are the pros, while the Mir developers are those with no experience, hence the amateurs.
                                realize that a display server is not exactly rocket science
                                rather, it's like putting together individual low - and high level pieces, and envision objects (classes / methods) and data structures (in this case to support windows and their manipulation) as you would for any other sw problem, something that anyone who has studied sw engineering 101 and is given time to analyze the use case, requiremesnt and the APIs to use, for this one as would for any other problem, can do

                                OTOH go and look for yourself how many professional positions in the sw industry require one to know and be proficient with methodologies such as Agile, XP, SCRUM, Test Driven Development and the like, or with languages such as (e/) C++, Java, C#, or ..., and how much software is written in C that is both *new* (ie other than GNU, core *nix code -stemmming from a legacy culture even when new- or straight legacy codebases , mandating the choice of language) and *professional* (written with a proper design and QA process)
                                in the real world (when theres no kernel to be developed and you can choose your language and tools freely) C is often looked at with suspicion, due to the fact that it's the choice of hobbyists hacking together half working code without a design a qa process (without maybe even knowing what qa means , much less about writing tests before code - "tests? what are tests?"), in my field it often bears an image of unprofessionalism
                                and yet wayland developers have chosen to perpetuate the use of C and not use a development methodology that would make the code both more modern and closer to persistent (because tests being part of the codebase help a great deal to avoid regressions) correctness

                                judging from them not (seemingly) knowing nor applying current sw development methodologies, sticking to old fashioned tools and design concepts (previously the display server separated from the window manager separated from the shell, now the display server still separated from the shell - protocols needing to be extensible as if the requirements for something like a desktop were not finite and apriori known...) one may also call them amateurs ( though i won't, in respect for them being paid developers for large companies for quite some time)
                                but then, it's be also quite an insult to call someone an amateur, who doesnt have an equally big name yet knows how to do his job - how can you question the professionality of someone you dont know, in his own field?

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