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X11 Turns 25 Years Old Today

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    Also it allows for tear-tree video, transparency (yes there are legit cases for transparency...
    Vertical sync and transparency are interesting examples as neither of them require a compositor, and had existed prior to compositors for well over a decade. The only truly legitimate cases for transparency are when the display is being represented in three dimensions and/or when the display is itself transparent.

    I'm not arguing against compositors, just that the benefits that you describe aren't exclusive to their use and optimal at the composition layer.

    F

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Ericg View Post
      Im ignoring the others because they mostly seem like opinion pieces. THIS one however I did want to point out: There's more to being a compositor than just providing 3D. Being a compositor allows applications / toolkits to leverage the GPU for display, leaving the CPU and RAM to do other things. Also it allows for tear-tree video, transparency (yes there are legit cases for transparency, in the windows world-- desktop peek, or the compositor effect to show all windows side by side and let you select the individual one you want instead of alt-tabbing through them one by one). And i'm sure an actual developer (Martin? if he's reading this thread) could point out technical benefits to compositing as well, but unfortunately I am not a developer.
      I do not use Mutter, or Kwin, or Compiz. I do not care about them. I use Awesome, I have used fluxbox and wmii in the past (ok, I did use kwin long ago, but I would not want to now). In the future I may use something else, but it would likely be in the same vein. If I did find a compositor that did something useful for me, I am fine with it being outside the WM thank you very much.

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      • #33
        Since on Linux global keyboard hotkeys are only done with Xlib (X11), what's Wayland's way of doing this? Is there a way at all?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by mark45 View Post
          Since on Linux global keyboard hotkeys are only done with Xlib (X11), what's Wayland's way of doing this? Is there a way at all?
          I saw some hotkey stuff last time I took a look at Wayland. In addition, the WM typically has its own set of hotkeys. "Global" keyboard hotkeys were only global when using X11, which is OK since it was the only real game in town. I don't feel that they were truly "global" either, since VT hotkeys worked perfectly fine without X11 present, and continued working with X running.

          F

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          • #35
            Originally posted by russofris View Post
            I saw some hotkey stuff last time I took a look at Wayland. In addition, the WM typically has its own set of hotkeys. "Global" keyboard hotkeys were only global when using X11, which is OK since it was the only real game in town. I don't feel that they were truly "global" either, since VT hotkeys worked perfectly fine without X11 present, and continued working with X running.

            F
            Thanks, but Wayland either has support for it or it doesn't. I didn't notice in the Wayland documentation any API/protocol about global hotkeys, have you? Seeing "some hotkey stuff" could be anything, maybe even a workaround around Wayland's inability to deal with this. I'm interested into someone pointing out the API or so.

            I created an app the other day which captures global hotkeys through Xlib and I'm trying to find a way to make it work under Wayland, and since I can't rely on Xlib.. I wonder.
            Last edited by mark45; 09-15-2012, 04:12 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by mark45 View Post
              Since on Linux global keyboard hotkeys are only done with Xlib (X11), what's Wayland's way of doing this? Is there a way at all?
              I often use actkbd to have "global hotkeys" that work both in X and in the console, without X running.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by KellyClowers View Post
                >But remote access ive never ONCE used. I've always gone for a full desktop via an RDP-like protocol. Just seems like a better solution to me because you do get the full desktop available to you.
                I haven't yet happened to use a single app remote connection... I have used the whole desktop over X11/NX. Lately I have not had 2 computers running X...

                >Also, isnt X11's remote protocol REALLY inefficient for modern applications?
                It has its inefficiencies unfortunately, yes. Thus NX. I wouldn't be opposed to X12 or something that kept the good ideas but made things more efficient.

                >As far as the "old, polished WMs" Anyone using Ratpoison / blackbox / openbox / etc, will probably stick to X11 for a long time anyway.
                Goddamn right.

                >Writing an entire compositor? Kwin, Mutter,and Compiz already ARE their own compositor
                I really don't care. They can keep their 3d, I don't want it.

                >if they are taking the time TO write their own UI, let them do it.
                That's a negative. If I wanted that, I would use Chrome and all those windows apps like RealPlayer that do that. But I don't!

                >But as far as apps that have hung / crashed / froze: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ay/001002.html
                Meh, whatever, if if that works out, it only solves half the problem.
                Your a relic, dude. We must move forward no matter how much old folks like you want to remain in the past for nostalgic reasons.

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                • #38
                  --delete--

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by curaga View Post
                    I often use actkbd to have "global hotkeys" that work both in X and in the console, without X running.
                    Sorry I thought it's self evident that I only mean solutions that are installed and running by default. One can probably even write a module for the Linux kernel and use that but we're only talking about the stuff installed by default on any (mainstream) Linux distro.
                    Last edited by mark45; 09-15-2012, 06:16 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mark45 View Post
                      Thanks, but Wayland either has support for it or it doesn't.
                      I do not think the word "global" means what you think it means.

                      Allow me to restate. Wayland does not appear to support X11 hotkeys. We shouldn't refer to X11 hotkeys as "global", since they're not really "global". I guess you could say that they're "global" to X11 applications. I fully expect things like Alt-Tab will still work under Wayland, through the Wayland or WM hotkeys.

                      "Hotkeys" will work just fine without X11, just like they do under NT, OSX, Linux, and any other X11-less stack.

                      F

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                      • #41
                        Some X11 programs actually read directly from the /dev/input/ devices to do global shortcuts anyway. "Mumble" for example.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by russofris View Post
                          I do not think the word "global" means what you think it means.

                          Allow me to restate. Wayland does not appear to support X11 hotkeys. We shouldn't refer to X11 hotkeys as "global", since they're not really "global". I guess you could say that they're "global" to X11 applications. I fully expect things like Alt-Tab will still work under Wayland, through the Wayland or WM hotkeys.

                          "Hotkeys" will work just fine without X11, just like they do under NT, OSX, Linux, and any other X11-less stack.

                          F
                          I do not think you understand what I mean.
                          Allow me to restate.

                          Alt-Tab usage insider Wayland and global keys events exposed to external (not Wayland itself) apps are two different cases, one doesn't necessarily mean the other.

                          Also, I'm asking about a usable solution, not fringe solutions, not recompiling the kernel or directly reading the keyboard device or so, no nonsense.
                          E.g. a portable way across all X11 based distros is using XGrabKeys and the generic string "XF86AudioPlay" for the "play" key, can you provide working portable code across Wayland based distros and across keyboards? Show me the code (the solution, as I said earlier, must be based upon software installed by default, you just use the API that it provides).
                          Last edited by mark45; 09-16-2012, 02:24 AM.

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                          • #43
                            The "installed by default" argument is nonsense, because of course no popular distro will expect you to want your volume hotkeys to work without X. So they install by default something that handles them inside X.

                            actkbd is hardly a fringe solution comparable to writing your custom kernel modules. It's a portable linux daemon that reads the keyboard events from /dev. If you insist on writing your own daemon, that's the portable way to do so. It will work in X, console, wayland, or even no display at all but still a keyboard attached

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by curaga View Post
                              The "installed by default" argument is nonsense, because of course no popular distro will expect you to want your volume hotkeys to work without X. So they install by default something that handles them inside X.
                              Nonsense is how you redefine my words. If actkbd isn't installed by default I don't care about using it, get it? If still not, please take a hike. I want to base my app on dependencies that are installed by default, which is X11 or Wayland.

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                              • #45
                                i love that the 800 pound gorilla is not discussed. the ability for windows or osx (maybe, im not sure) to survive a driver crash and preserve the apps. modern toolkits have this ability but no-one uses them. this makes the linux desktop an utter joke for the normal user because X.org crashes close all the apps and disrupts the work. and you can't lie to me that they don't happen often because they do. canonical is too cheap to do regression testing so you are probably gonna get at least a few x.org crashes a year.
                                i'm sure x11 cranks cannot weasel out of this out easily.

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