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X.Org's XDS2012 Will Celebrate 25 Years Of X11

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  • X.Org's XDS2012 Will Celebrate 25 Years Of X11

    Phoronix: X.Org's XDS2012 Will Celebrate 25 Years Of X11

    Some new details have emerged concerning the 2012 X.Org Developers' Summit, which will take place this September and commemorate 25 years of X11...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTA2OTU

  • #2
    I'm sure it's going to be a blast!

    I'm sure it's going to be a blast! Can't wait for September to come

    Comment


    • #3
      X12

      25 years of X11.
      Time for X12 now?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        25 years of X11.
        Time for X12 now?
        Time for Wayland I would say.

        Sending another process rendering commands worked back in the days but is now complete non-sense performance wise.

        With Wayland, an app can choose to render using the CPU or OpenGL (accelerated rendering) and pass that buffer to the compositor, no more copying --> more performance and more freedom to do what you want.

        As for the loss of networking, Wayland isn't incompatible with that since it supports a "damage" API that can be used to push modifications of a window through the network efficiently. A Wayland client could be located on a server and you would provide the wayland server on your computer. Just like the current architecture.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by uid313 View Post
          25 years of X11.
          Time for X12 now?
          i agree. i really don't understand how x11 lasted so long - it is older than me. the other versions all lived for a normal amount of time but 25 years? even 10 would be a long time, and i would bet that x11 today is completely incompatible with how it was 25 years ago, making the version number nonsensical.

          it is time for x12. maybe wayland wouldn't have been necessary if x12 were released a long time ago with the fixes that wayland proposes. having 2 competing graphical servers will propose more hardware compatibility issues than we have already.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
            i agree. i really don't understand how x11 lasted so long - it is older than me. the other versions all lived for a normal amount of time but 25 years? even 10 would be a long time, and i would bet that x11 today is completely incompatible with how it was 25 years ago, making the version number nonsensical.
            The core X11 protocol was always kept backward compatible (though some rarely-used extensions such as LBX, PEX or XEvIE were in fact removed).

            Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
            it is time for x12. maybe wayland wouldn't have been necessary if x12 were released a long time ago with the fixes that wayland proposes. having 2 competing graphical servers will propose more hardware compatibility issues than we have already.
            You keep talking about this "X12" thing, yet you haven't told us what it's even suppsed to be. Really, what in god's name are you blathering about?

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            • #7
              Information about Nuremberg

              As I am born in Nuremberg (Nrnberg) and live here I want to give you some information about the location and clarify some information given in the article.



              First of all you should know, that visiting the Oktoberfest in Munich is not just a matter of jumping a train and be there in an hour or so. If you plan a visit you should have a full day at your disposal. So don't think you can leave Nuremberg at 3 pm and return late at night. Munich is about 200 km distance from Nuremberg and a 1 hour trainride is very optimistic. Even a fast train could take nearly 1 1/2 hours (and at that time they may well be pretty packed and overcrowded). Once you are in Munich station, you still have a way to the festival. The time to plan from Suse in Nuremberg (or your hotel) to reach Oktoberfest can be 3 hours or so. Oktoberfest can barely cope with the number of people trying to visit. People who can't stand to be sandwiched in a massive crowd, should not go there.

              If you are into history, you will find plenty of opportunities to spend your spare time in Nrnberg. From Suse Headquartes it literally just a 5 minute walk up the beautiful medieval castle, which will serve you a view over the city. And of course you may see some sites from the nazi-time, as Nuremberg was the chosen venue of Hitler's nazi party rallyes.

              Uh, by the way. Technically spoken, Nuremberg may be part of Bavaria. The predominat selfunderstanding of people living here still is, that Nuremberg is part of FRANCONIA in the first place and people here might well appreciate, if you can come up with that knowledge. Franconia, by the way, has the highest density of breweries worldwide.

              Nuremberg is a half-a-million city and has as well some night life to offer.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
                The core X11 protocol was always kept backward compatible (though some rarely-used extensions such as LBX, PEX or XEvIE were in fact removed).


                You keep talking about this "X12" thing, yet you haven't told us what it's even suppsed to be. Really, what in god's name are you blathering about?
                i only mentioned it twice, and its not what its "supposed" to be but what it should be. IMO, wayland is what x12 should have been - a complete clean slate with newer forms of rendering. from what i've heard, x11 is still packed with old, unneeded code or does things that would be considered inefficient today. but, i've also heard it is too much of a hassle to clean up.

                but, since wayland pretty much takes care of this problem, there isn't necessarily a need for x12 anymore. all i was trying to say was x12 should have been released a while ago (like 5+ years ago) and if it were, wayland wouldn't have been necessary.

                Comment


                • #9
                  25 years and we're still using that?

                  LOL. Lemme install MS-DOS.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
                    You keep talking about this "X12" thing, yet you haven't told us what it's even suppsed to be. Really, what in god's name are you blathering about?
                    http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12


                    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                    25 years and we're still using that?

                    LOL. Lemme install MS-DOS.
                    Just because something is old, it does not mean that it is inherently bad.
                    The protocol is 25 years old, but the implementation (code) may have been worked, refined, rewritten, tuned and improved.

                    Unix and Internet are old too, they're way older than 25 years. But its good stuff.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by uid313 View Post
                      Unix and Internet are old too, they're way older than 25 years. But its good stuff.
                      lol i'm not sure i agree with the internet thing. yes, it's great, but ipv4 and its addressing is becoming a serious problem. we've already experienced moments of running out of ip addresses, it's time we move onto ipv6, but that won't be an easy transition.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
                        http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12
                        Just because something is old, it does not mean that it is inherently bad.
                        The protocol is 25 years old, but the implementation (code) may have been worked, refined, rewritten, tuned and improved.
                        Oh yes, it does mean it's bad, because it's computer technology.

                        Unix and Internet are old too, they're way older than 25 years. But its good stuff.
                        OK, lemme see. Unix is being worked-around and bypassed like hell these days (SELinux, ACLs, ConsoleKit, PAM, graphics don't use /dev anymore, etc, etc, etc). And the Internet protocol is a huge failure, and again being worked around with SSL and stuff. And then email. OMG to that one. No sender authentication and spam anyone?

                        All of these old techs pretty much suck. We don't use them because they're so great. We use them because we're stuck with them.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
                          it is time for x12. maybe wayland wouldn't have been necessary if x12 were released a long time ago with the fixes that wayland proposes. having 2 competing graphical servers will propose more hardware compatibility issues than we have already.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                            OK, lemme see. Unix is being worked-around and bypassed like hell these days (SELinux, ACLs, ConsoleKit, PAM, graphics don't use /dev anymore, etc, etc, etc). And the Internet protocol is a huge failure, and again being worked around with SSL and stuff. And then email. OMG to that one. No sender authentication and spam anyone?

                            All of these old techs pretty much suck. We don't use them because they're so great. We use them because we're stuck with them.
                            SSL runs on top of the Internet Protocol, so what "stuff" bypasses the Internet Protocol? How do you feel about the Transmission Control Protocol?

                            You are forgetting something important about email: *it works*. Spam is an irritation, but if you send an email to Jo then (barring very unusual abnormalities) she receives it. Exactly as it was sent. Very quickly.

                            By denouncing the creators of SMTP you seem to be suggesting that they should have anticipated problems that would exist 30 years in the future, and that they are negligent for not doing so - it was invented when the notion of a computer that wasn't in a university, multinational company of military complex was laughable. To veer into hyperbole, isn't this like decrying the inventor of the internal combustion engine for not anticipating and finding a solution for traffic jams? ;-)

                            Old might mean boring, but it doesn't mean bad - if the ideas were bad then we wouldn't be discussing them in this manner.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by archibald View Post
                              SSL runs on top of the Internet Protocol, so what "stuff" bypasses the Internet Protocol? How do you feel about the Transmission Control Protocol?
                              SSL is a layer on top. Pretty much what X11 has become with all the extensions. IPv6 is a good example of doing the right thing instead of trying to introduce some layer on top of the current IPv4.

                              However, were "the Internet" to be designed today, it would look quite different.

                              You are forgetting something important about email: *it works*. Spam is an irritation, but if you send an email to Jo then (barring very unusual abnormalities) she receives it. Exactly as it was sent. Very quickly.
                              You seem to be confusing "it works" with "it's of a very good design by modern needs."

                              By denouncing the creators of SMTP you seem to be suggesting that they should have anticipated problems that would exist 30 years in the future
                              Of course not. That would be very unfair. What I'm trying to say is that those old technologies show their age. Same with X11. It's not made for modern computing. Its core is pretty much irrelevant these days and everyone depends on the layers (extensions) that were put on top of it.

                              This is what I'm always told when I complain about the performance of something that runs in X11. For example, I pointed out to the KWin folks that I can run Windows Aero very smoothly even when my GPU switches from 850MHz to 50Mhz (not a typo, it really runs perfectly with just 50MHz and the power consumption drops significantly). KWin on the other hand becomes a sluggish snail at that GPU clock. I was told that this can't be avoided, since Aero is a modern design with very few indirections, while X11+composite has a lot of overhead and needs more GPU and memory bandwidth.

                              Other OSes have modernized and overhauled their graphics stacks. Linux is still using a 25 year old core with a lot of hacks on top of it.

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