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XAA In X.Org Has Finally Met Its Executioner

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  • #31
    " I suppose all software should target 386 processors with ISA video cards with 256K of vram because hw that old could still be in use somewhere..."

    you are missing my point.


    For old hardware you had a driver that functioned well and would continue to function well ad nauseam since it was clearly working, now it's not.

    there haven't been extreme graphical enhancements from ubuntu 8 to ubuntu 10 or open suse 11 to 12 that could explain the absolute nightmare lag.


    I'm almost 100% sure this is ATI specific since in all the lots of forums I've red where people couldn't comprehend their drop in performance they all had -1 or +1 gen cards of mine

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    • #32
      Didn't Intel "fix" the acceleration for old chips by using ShadowFB? Maybe you guys could try that to see it performs better then EXA on ATI ancient hardware as well, and if it does the devs could just make ShadowFB the default and everybody will be happy?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
        "For old hardware you had a driver that functioned well and would continue to function well ad nauseam since it was clearly working, now it's not."
        You can't have it both ways.
        My 12 y/o (!) Inspiron 7000 w/ ATI Mach64 and 256MB is simply too slow to run Fedora 17.
        However, it'll run CentOS 5.6 just fine.
        Hence, instead of blaming the developers for abandoning my 12 y/o laptop, I simply use old distributions w/ long term support.

        Expecting Xorg to developers to waste valuable resources maintaining 10+ y/o hardware, instead of using the same resource supporting new hardware is simply absurd.

        - Gilboa
        DEV: Intel S2600C0, 2xE52658V2, 32GB, 4x2TB + 2x3TB, GTX780, F21/x86_64, Dell U2711.
        SRV: Intel S5520SC, 2xX5680, 36GB, 4x2TB, GTX550, F21/x86_64, Dell U2412..
        BACK: Tyan Tempest i5400XT, 2xE5335, 8GB, 3x1.5TB, 9800GTX, F21/x86-64.
        LAP: ASUS N56VJ, i7-3630QM, 16GB, 1TB, 635M, F21/x86_64.

        Comment


        • #34
          gilboa a 3ghz pentium 4 with 1 g of ram is more than enough to run any 3.x kernel distro, I have older laptops that for instance have nvidia but I'm able to run stuff like lubuntu just fine.... with ati ones you are stuck in 2007/08

          Originally posted by Ansla View Post
          Didn't Intel "fix" the acceleration for old chips by using ShadowFB? Maybe you guys could try that to see it performs better then EXA on ATI ancient hardware as well, and if it does the devs could just make ShadowFB the default and everybody will be happy?
          Intel seems to care about their customers, ati could give a shit less and these x.org people have to hack, juggle and jump trough hoops and come up with all this xaaexa bs just to get newer cards to run etc...

          From now on I know for a fact my money will go to intel and intel only, I see laptops with those amd and radeon stickers vade retro satanas

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
            gilboa a 3ghz pentium 4 with 1 g of ram is more than enough to run any 3.x kernel distro, I have older laptops that for instance have nvidia but I'm able to run stuff like lubuntu just fine.... with ati ones you are stuck in 2007/08
            Are you sure you're talking about the same age/class of laptop & GPU here ? I think the ATI/AMD GPUs pretty much fall into 4 groups :

            - more than 10 yrs old (rn50, rv100, r200, rv250) - open source only, IIRC only r2xx was ever supported by Catalyst

            - r3xx through r5xx - Catalyst support dropped a couple of years ago but open source performance close enough to Catalyst that I wouldn't expect significant differences in what can be done today vs 5+ yrs ago

            - r6xx / r7xx - Catalyst support continues in legacy branch, just like NVidia, plus open source

            - Evergreen through NI - supported by mainline Catalyst, plus open source

            - SI - supported by mainline catalyst, initial open source support released & being debugged

            Can you be a bit more specific about what "stuck in 2007/2008" means ?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
              - r6xx / r7xx - Catalyst support continues in legacy branch, just like NVidia, plus open source
              Wait, that sounds like significant *new* information to me.
              This reads as if I can hope for more legacy Catalyst releases (HD 4850).
              With Steam coming soon I bet driver bugfixes are important.

              I'm currently using the FOSS driver and it's fine with most of the native games so far.
              But I guess Steam will force me to use the blob again, unfortunately. :/

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by entropy View Post
                Wait, that sounds like significant *new* information to me.
                http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTEzNDA

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
                  Intel seems to care about their customers, ati could give a shit less and these x.org people have to hack, juggle and jump trough hoops and come up with all this xaaexa bs just to get newer cards to run etc...
                  You are probably not aware that this "Intel has great Linux support" is only valid for the current generations of hardware, Sandy Bridge and newer. If you're stuck with an i945 or older you'd wish you had an ATI/AMD card. And that i945 is newer then the ATI r200, from about the r300 era and was still sold together with Atom cpus up until ~2 years ago. And I can tell you from my own experience that running a modern Linux distribution (anything with KMS) on a computer with i945 graphics is horrible, beside the abysmal performance there were also a lot of graphical corruptions.

                  BTW, did you even try ShadowFB?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    My bad.

                    I was sure I read somewhere we should not expect further legacy drivers.
                    Stopping the last sentence of the article after 'updates' would deliver exactly that.
                    But why would I ever do such a thing?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ansla View Post
                      You are probably not aware that this "Intel has great Linux support" is only valid for the current generations of hardware, Sandy Bridge and newer. If you're stuck with an i945 or older you'd wish you had an ATI/AMD card. And that i945 is newer then the ATI r200, from about the r300 era and was still sold together with Atom cpus up until ~2 years ago. And I can tell you from my own experience that running a modern Linux distribution (anything with KMS) on a computer with i945 graphics is horrible, beside the abysmal performance there were also a lot of graphical corruptions.
                      My netbook has i945 and things work great. Of course you can't expect much 3d performance, but the issue is the weak hardware, not the driver. What 3d is there, works fine. And SNA for 2d works great too. Perhaps you're thinking i8xx?

                      My oldest laptop is 10 years old and has SiS650 graphics. It never had 3d support in Linux, and for some time now activating EXA makes X segfault at start-up (there's a bug open on freedesktop bugzilla, but the SiS driver is unmaintained, so I doubt anything will happen). So what did I do? The logical thing, activated ShadowFB. And voila, stable machine, good enough for web browsing and watching videos (thanks to the hardware overlay that's available with Xv).

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
                        gilboa a 3ghz pentium 4 with 1 g of ram is more than enough to run any 3.x kernel distro, I have older laptops that for instance have nvidia but I'm able to run stuff like lubuntu just fine.... with ati ones you are stuck in 2007/08

                        If you re-read to OP, *very* old (mid 90's) graphics cards are being dropped, such as the Virage S3 (95) and ATI Mach 128 (96?).
                        I doubt that many machines from the mid-90's (mostly laptop, I presume; desktop can have their graphics card replaced for 10$ on ebay) are capable of running modern distributions.

                        - Gilboa
                        DEV: Intel S2600C0, 2xE52658V2, 32GB, 4x2TB + 2x3TB, GTX780, F21/x86_64, Dell U2711.
                        SRV: Intel S5520SC, 2xX5680, 36GB, 4x2TB, GTX550, F21/x86_64, Dell U2412..
                        BACK: Tyan Tempest i5400XT, 2xE5335, 8GB, 3x1.5TB, 9800GTX, F21/x86-64.
                        LAP: ASUS N56VJ, i7-3630QM, 16GB, 1TB, 635M, F21/x86_64.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
                          I don't need to read that I have the laptops here and the live cd's and even a monkey can tell you that going from 300 fps in glxgears in suse 11.1 and u8 to 25 fps in ubuntu 12.04 means something zigged instead of zagged and the only difference I can perceive is the EXA / XAA thing

                          if XAA didn't provide any acceleration it certainly didn't lag the whole system like exa did...
                          It seems you are blaming EXA for something it not directly to blame for.

                          I ask they guy who added support for EXA to r-128 which is older than both of your cards if he noticed any 3D preformance drop after implementing EXA.

                          His response:
                          Not according to glxgears. With page-flipping on I get ~690fps with XAA and EXA.
                          It seems there is something else that is causing your issue.

                          See: http://www.smallperturbation.com/r128-exa#comment-30 for more information.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            timothy I don't know, I lack the skill set to go deep into xorg and find out what is causing this...

                            All I know is that if I use a distro with an old kernel that had XAA as the default acceleration method, everything runs smoothly, glxgears about 300 fps, if I use anything with EXA is unusable about 28 fps glxgears

                            agp, kms etc etc seems to be set fine and EXA and XAA thing seem to be the only change

                            http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...678#post279678


                            I am far from being the only one affected by this, I have red the same in lots of forums, spanish/english and portuguese of users complaining when they made the switch from ubuntu hardy heron to ubuntu 9 or 10... all running first generations integrated ati had huge perfomance drops.


                            I know the cards are 8 years old and crap, etc etc etc but my specific model the igp 345m was even used in sony vaios of 2004/5...

                            I am sorry but ANYTHING post 2002 SHOULD, nay, HAS to run any 3.x kernel distro with openbox or ice or e17 JUST FINE.

                            I wish there was some sort of switch in x.org that if detects r100 or r200/rs200 r300 etc it switches back to XAA or shadowfb or whatever else that at least allows you to run linux

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
                              I wish there was some sort of switch in x.org that if detects r100 or r200/rs200 r300 etc it switches back to XAA or shadowfb or whatever else that at least allows you to run linux
                              Old hardware has it's price. In this case needing to configure some stuff manually. That's what distro forums and wikis are for, to instruct users how to activate ShadowFB if their hardware doesn't work well with modern acceleration architectures.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Pallidus View Post
                                timothy I don't know, I lack the skill set to go deep into xorg and find out what is causing this...

                                All I know is that if I use a distro with an old kernel that had XAA as the default acceleration method, everything runs smoothly, glxgears about 300 fps, if I use anything with EXA is unusable about 28 fps glxgears

                                agp, kms etc etc seems to be set fine and EXA and XAA thing seem to be the only change

                                http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...678#post279678


                                I am far from being the only one affected by this, I have red the same in lots of forums, spanish/english and portuguese of users complaining when they made the switch from ubuntu hardy heron to ubuntu 9 or 10... all running first generations integrated ati had huge perfomance drops.


                                I know the cards are 8 years old and crap, etc etc etc but my specific model the igp 345m was even used in sony vaios of 2004/5...

                                I am sorry but ANYTHING post 2002 SHOULD, nay, HAS to run any 3.x kernel distro with openbox or ice or e17 JUST FINE.

                                I wish there was some sort of switch in x.org that if detects r100 or r200/rs200 r300 etc it switches back to XAA or shadowfb or whatever else that at least allows you to run linux
                                So from the link you posted I take it you were only getting 300fps when using the Catalyst driver which is too old for Ubuntu 12, and you got the same 38 FPS on the open source drivers under Ubuntu 8?

                                Comment

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