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Why More Companies Don't Contribute To X.Org

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  • #31
    Originally posted by evolution View Post
    About Wayland, is it REALLY an Ubuntu project?!
    Nothing is an Ubuntu project. Canonical sends nearly no code to upstream. Ubuntu just uses what others have produced. Mark Shuttleworth has even indirectly said that they do nothing (= he said they only try to get Linux to masses).

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    • #32
      Yes, I know the market share of intel IGP's is bigger than ATI + nVidia in conjuction... Although there will always be a market for discrete GPU's while we still need them for some heavy graphic demands or GPGPU, (for instance)... Integrated GPUs is the way to go in mobile market, but in the desktop one, I don't think so... (personal opinion, OC)
      The Intel Sandy Bridge i5 processor is already defeating low-end discrete GPUs in benchmarks on Windows.

      The principal limitation for IGP performance is lack of memory bandwidth. Your fighting with the CPU over the memory controller. With the memory controller and GPU as part of the processor, though, that is a different beast entirely.

      Video cards will just get pushed higher and higher. People that will want the best graphics performance will want video cards for a long long time, but eventually that will go away too.

      For many workloads your going to start to see the negative effects of latency that happens when you moving information over the PCI Express bus versus sharing the same memory segments. Increasing memory bandwidth to the central processor is certainly possible... getting rid of latency from hanging a GPU off of the far end up a PCI Express bus (or any other interconnect) is not. The more information your moving from CPU to the GPU the worse it's going to be for a discrete video card.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by marek View Post
        Nothing is an Ubuntu project.
        oh? Who is making Unity?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by drag View Post
          oh? Who is making Unity?
          Unity is Ubuntu-specific. Yeah, it could be used by other distros too, but i don't believe many will...

          If we are to count distro-specific software, we should include the various package managers and guis other distros use too...

          If we are talking about upstream projects, Canonical's contributions are minimal at best...

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          • #35
            I know...

            Originally posted by marek View Post
            Nothing is an Ubuntu project. Canonical sends nearly no code to upstream. Ubuntu just uses what others have produced. Mark Shuttleworth has even indirectly said that they do nothing (= he said they only try to get Linux to masses).
            I know, I just was using a bit of irony in the subject...

            Cheers

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            • #36
              Originally posted by V!NCENT View Post
              There's a difference between bullying and 'just fscking with ya '. If you can't withstand something as playfull and small like that then I fear for you entering society. My friends a doing stuff like that all the time with eachother. It builds a better bond, too, "lol remember when we did that?". C'mon....
              Do you really think, given the history of bad blood between Xorg and that developer was to "build a better bond?". Come on, that was hardly the case.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by evolution View Post
                Yes, I know the market share of intel IGP's is bigger than ATI + nVidia in conjuction... Although there will always be a market for discrete GPU's while we still need them for some heavy graphic demands or GPGPU, (for instance)... Integrated GPUs is the way to go in mobile market, but in the desktop one, I don't think so... (personal opinion, OC)
                Just like there will always be a market for discrete FPUs? [/sarcasm]

                Modern GPUs are exceedingly parallel SIMD FPU cores at a very basic level. I expect there will always be a market for discrete framebuffer cards, but the actual rendering will move to the CPU once the CPU has the performance to be "good enough". At that point, economies of scale will mean that simply throwing more CPUs at the problem will get you performance cheaper than using a highly specialised card even for the very high end usage.

                At least that is how I would expect it to go.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by marek View Post
                  Nothing is an Ubuntu project. Canonical sends nearly no code to upstream. Ubuntu just uses what others have produced. Mark Shuttleworth has even indirectly said that they do nothing (= he said they only try to get Linux to masses).
                  what is wrong about that ?

                  really nothing...

                  i use kubuntu but i support many opensource projects.

                  ubuntu try to get more people and more people brings more helping hands and more helping hands brings more money for the devs be sure

                  maybe the masses are not so helpfull but a tiny bit helpfull is more than nothing.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by RobbieAB View Post
                    Just like there will always be a market for discrete FPUs? [/sarcasm]

                    Modern GPUs are exceedingly parallel SIMD FPU cores at a very basic level. I expect there will always be a market for discrete framebuffer cards, but the actual rendering will move to the CPU once the CPU has the performance to be "good enough". At that point, economies of scale will mean that simply throwing more CPUs at the problem will get you performance cheaper than using a highly specialised card even for the very high end usage.

                    At least that is how I would expect it to go.
                    Throwing more general purpose cpu's against a specialized solution is always going to be a less efficient solution. It's not like those specialized solutions are going to sit on their asses and not progress while general purpose solutions advance. Don't forget that for those high performance groups "good enough" maybe ok for your general user but "good enough" rarely is a phrase heard from demanding users as performance is usually the determining factor.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                      Unity is Ubuntu-specific. Yeah, it could be used by other distros too, but i don't believe many will...

                      If we are to count distro-specific software, we should include the various package managers and guis other distros use too...
                      I do. Those are still all projects.

                      If we are talking about upstream projects, Canonical's contributions are minimal at best...
                      Sorta.

                      In terms of code, yes.
                      In terms of getting people to actually use the software... they are instrumental.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                        Throwing more general purpose cpu's against a specialized solution is always going to be a less efficient solution. It's not like those specialized solutions are going to sit on their asses and not progress while general purpose solutions advance. Don't forget that for those high performance groups "good enough" maybe ok for your general user but "good enough" rarely is a phrase heard from demanding users as performance is usually the determining factor.
                        I believe he is talking about moving the specialized cores to be part of the processor as extra cores on the same die as regular general purpose processor.

                        As far as computers go there is a lot of things to consider. Performance is just one factor out of many.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                          Throwing more general purpose cpu's against a specialized solution is always going to be a less efficient solution. It's not like those specialized solutions are going to sit on their asses and not progress while general purpose solutions advance. Don't forget that for those high performance groups "good enough" maybe ok for your general user but "good enough" rarely is a phrase heard from demanding users as performance is usually the determining factor.
                          Of course. However, even though general purpose computers can't get close to the floating point performance of dedicated FPU systems, we still don't see specialist FPU chips anymore. (Ok, I know there is one system out there that is a specialist FP system...)

                          I'm not saying that the specialised chips won't remain more efficient, just that they will become more and more niche, to the point where though they have an efficiency edge, they will be so expensive that the mass market CPU will offer the same performance for less cash.

                          What is the difference between a GPU with a CPU stuck on the side, and a CPU with a GPU stuck on the side? GPGPU? It's a CPU if it's the main chip in the box...

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                            Throwing more general purpose cpu's against a specialized solution is always going to be a less efficient solution. It's not like those specialized solutions are going to sit on their asses and not progress while general purpose solutions advance. Don't forget that for those high performance groups "good enough" maybe ok for your general user but "good enough" rarely is a phrase heard from demanding users as performance is usually the determining factor.
                            You forget one thing:

                            Gpu power progresses far more rapidly than Cpu power.

                            We cannot increase the mhz and/or core count much. Of course, other improvements could increase the ipc, but in general, with each processing node from now on, cpu performance increases only for about 10-20% while gpu performance increases 100%. It is far more easier to increase gpu performance at this point.

                            Eventually we will reach a point where the ratio of CPU/GPU performance inside an APU, will reach a convient number, where it will be better to simply use more APUs than using discreet gpus.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                              You forget one thing:

                              Gpu power progresses far more rapidly than Cpu power.
                              I'm not forgetting anything, I've already said that specialized solutions aren't going to sit on their asses while general purpose CPU's continue on with development.

                              We cannot increase the mhz and/or core count much. Of course, other improvements could increase the ipc, but in general, with each processing node from now on, cpu performance increases only for about 10-20% while gpu performance increases 100%. It is far more easier to increase gpu performance at this point.
                              Which is why I said that a general purpose CPU is not the solution for the high performance crowd.

                              Eventually we will reach a point where the ratio of CPU/GPU performance inside an APU, will reach a convient number, where it will be better to simply use more APUs than using discreet gpus.
                              IMHO, with the HPC crowd especially, the CPU will, more or less, become just merely another component on the board to handle delegation of computing to the various discreet devices and will become nothing more then an extension of motherboard chipsets.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                                I'm not forgetting anything, I've already said that specialized solutions aren't going to sit on their asses while general purpose CPU's continue on with development.
                                No, you don't get it(yet).

                                Let me explain:

                                1) You think specialized vs general purpose are some kind of rivals. They are not. Intel and AMD from now on(with the exception of the first generation Bulldozer) will release only APUs. You will not be able to buy single cpus anymore, forget it. That's it. There is no antagonism between the two. They will cooperate *on-die*.

                                2) Since cpus cannot advance faster anymore, and squizing more cores in a die reaches diminishing returns, the solution will be the combination of cpu+ gpu. Cpu will act kind of a coordinator, while the bulk of heavy calculations will happen on the gpu side.This will happen both for graphics and gpgpu.

                                3) As the lithography advances, and transistors shrink, gpu will cover more and more of the APU die. As i said, it makes no sense putting more cpu cores there. You have to make something out of those transistors, and this something is a bigger gpu... Eventually, we will reach a point where a cpu could be 1/4 of the gpu part, or less...

                                When we reach this point, it will make far more sense to simply put more APUS inside a PC for increased performance. It will make no sense using GPUs alone. Only NVIDIA currently lacks an APU solution, and if it not solves this soon, NVIDIA will disappear.

                                Of course, for the gpgpu part, we need better OpenCL support, but be patient, it will come from both Intel and AMD...

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