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  • #16
    Originally posted by Teho View Post
    Well it's getting better. Here's a document worth reading about the subject.

    They really have... Guess who is the most active developer behind the de facto bluetoot stack, Bluez, on Linux? Intel. Guess who is the primary developer behind Wayland/Weston? Intel. How about oFono (used by Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch, MeeGo, Tizen (next version I think))? Intel. How about Mesa? Intel. ConnMan, the network stack used by Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch, Tizen...? Intel... and so on and so forth. They are also the second most active company in Linux developement. Red Hat is the only company to surpass them in contributions to the GNU/Linux stack overall and no one else comes even close.
    The document you linked didn't load for me. Would you happen to have a cleaner version of that link handy?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Serge View Post
      The document you linked didn't load for me. Would you happen to have a cleaner version of that link handy?
      Whoops, here you go.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Teho View Post
        Whoops, here you go.
        Thank you for the link. I found the document interesting, but I don't think it is relevant to the discussion here. However, you appear to be convinced that Tizen will result in a more free OS, and it appears that you are much more familiar with Tizen, so I'm going to defer to your judgement.
        Last edited by Serge; 09-23-2013, 08:56 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
          What makes you think that Tizen was conceived for "the benefit of everybody else"?

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen
          Have I claimed that it was?

          I don't really see the point in your argument here.


          Let me remind you that behing Tizen there is not only Intel but really Samsung. A company obvioulsy interested in the smarthphone and tablet market dominance. Their bussines is hardware, not advertisement , so they are not interested in spreding adware (Android) like Google does. Their dream, like any other company, is to have total control over the software too, so they are backing up software that eventually will fit their needs . So these are not "Tizen-based intel ultrabooks for the community ", there are Samsung ultrabooks with corporate profits in mind. Sadly, there is an obvious conflict of interests with Canonical who is on their way.
          And Canonical obviously isn't wanting to make a profit, right? They just put ads in the dash for fun...

          You need to understand that Tizen isn't really just one monolithic operating system. It's at least three operating systems: mobile, PC and IVI. Even then, there's many optional parts that individual hardware vendors may choose to add or leave out. Samsung is in it for the mobile, they are mainly interested in smartphones, maybe some tablets. And Samsung may want a platform they have more control in, there's no doubt about that, but that's not any worse than Android. At least Tizen is based on Glibc, Wayland and other technologies that have much more in common with actual Linux distros than Android does.

          But I don't really care about the mobile Tizen. Sailfish is more interesting on the mobile side anyway (IMHO). I care about the PC Tizen, the one that will run on Intel ultrabooks, which are of course x86-based, and will have Intel GPUs. It's the perfect combination: latest Intel tech, best Intel GPUs, Wayland and no need to worry about drivers because Intel... Intel has already demoed an ultrabook running Tizen. They had the Steam client already working on it. The PC Tizen will use Gnome Shell as the DE, with a Tizen-specific extension called "Tizen shell".

          At the end, Samsung and Intel can just trash it if their strategies change, just like HP did, jut like Nkia did. Oh! and just like Intel itself did with Tizen ancestors. That's the real world deal.
          Oh well, if we're gonna start speculating things without any basis on facts... the guys who hold the launch codes to all the nukes may just decide to trash the entire world, one day...

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          • #20
            Originally posted by dee. View Post
            I care about the PC Tizen, the one that will run on Intel ultrabooks, which are of course x86-based, and will have Intel GPUs. It's the perfect combination: latest Intel tech, best Intel GPUs, Wayland and no need to worry about drivers because Intel... Intel has already demoed an ultrabook running Tizen. They had the Steam client already working on it. The PC Tizen will use Gnome Shell as the DE, with a Tizen-specific extension called "Tizen shell".

            Oh well, if we're gonna start speculating things without any basis on facts... the guys who hold the launch codes to all the nukes may just decide to trash the entire world, one day...
            I have seen people post about the Tizen PC before, do you have any facts about Intels intention to build such a PC? Or are you yourself just speculating? Have I missed some announcement? The way I saw their demo of Tizen on a PC is the IT industry equivalent of the concept car in the auto industry. Basically they are trying out ideas showing off their technologies but have no real intention to turn it into a real product. Intel has been doing this for years first with Moblin, then with Meego and now with Tizen. I would be very surprised if they actually launched a product themselves.

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            • #21
              Same Question - Does anyone bite your pathetic trolling attempts anymore?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Serge View Post
                Thank you for the link. I found the document interesting, but I don't think it is relevant to the discussion here. However, you appear to be convinced that Tizen will result in a more free OS, and it appears that you are much more familiar with Tizen, so I'm going to defer to your judgement.
                I believe Tizen will be more open in the future than it has been in the past (which isn't saying much...). I would assume that Tizen is also a major reason for Intel's contributions to projects like Bluez, oFono, Wayland, neard, ConnMan... so in that sense it's very notable. However comparing it to Ubuntu is bit difficult as the other is getting more open while the other is closing down. In the light of recent events for example, Tizen will be using Wayland like rest of the GNU/Linux community while Ubuntu will use Mir that no one else does, the same is true with systemd/Upstart (Tizen uses systemd).

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Teho View Post
                  They really have... Guess who is the most active developer behind the de facto bluetoot stack, Bluez, on Linux? Intel. Guess who is the primary developer behind Wayland/Weston? Intel. How about oFono (used by Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch, MeeGo, Tizen (next version I think))? Intel. How about Mesa? Intel. ConnMan, the network stack used by Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch, Tizen...? Intel... and so on and so forth. They are also the second most active company in Linux developement. Red Hat is the only company to surpass them in contributions to the GNU/Linux stack overall and no one else comes even close.
                  Even with the work they've put towards the open source community, after the anti-competitive practices Intel has used to disadvantage AMD and VIA I will not be purchasing their products.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Honton View Post
                    He said the asymmetry is unfair, that's it. The right level of freedom or restrictions may vary for different parts of the software stack, but asymmetry is always wrong.

                    Wayland is symmetric, MIR is asymmetric. MIR is always the wrong choice for every one but Canonical.
                    Originally posted by CANONICAL
                    With the contributor agreement chosen by Canonical, the Harmony CLA, the contributor gives Canonical a licence to use their contributions. The contributor continues to own the copyright in the contribution, with full rights to re-use, re-distribute, and continue modifying the contributed code, allowing them to also share that contribution with other projects.
                    And what is wrong with that may i ask?

                    Originally posted by wayland
                    The MIT License is a free software license originating at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). It is a permissive free software license, meaning that it permits reuse within proprietary software provided all copies of the licensed software include a copy of the MIT License terms. Such proprietary software retains its proprietary nature even though it incorporates software under the MIT License

                    Both are GPL2 compatible.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tarceri View Post
                      I have seen people post about the Tizen PC before, do you have any facts about Intels intention to build such a PC? Or are you yourself just speculating? Have I missed some announcement?
                      They've demoed a unit. They've been heavily investing in Wayland development, and Intel has no other reason to invest in Wayland - their GPUs aren't used in workstations/render farms, or gaming. They've also very invested in Tizen development. Companies don't invest in products they don't intend to use.

                      http://www.tizenexperts.com/2013/05/...nference-2013/

                      The way I saw their demo of Tizen on a PC is the IT industry equivalent of the concept car in the auto industry. Basically they are trying out ideas showing off their technologies but have no real intention to turn it into a real product.
                      And what exactly makes you think so?

                      Intel has been doing this for years first with Moblin, then with Meego and now with Tizen. I would be very surprised if they actually launched a product themselves.
                      They may or may not launch it themselves, the actual ultrabooks, laptops, tablets etc. may be released by some independent OEM/hardware vendor in partnership with Intel. Regardless, even if they don't launch the product themselves, they still benefit, because the devices will be using Intel CPUs and GPUs.

                      Also, Moblin was way too immature, Meego plans fell apart because Nokia Eloped away from the project, so now they have Tizen - which is really just the logical continuation of the same plans. The difference is, the platform is now finally maturing to the point where it is feasible to use it in consumer products.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                        Both are GPL2 compatible.
                        You can't use GPLv3 licensed code on GPLv2 licensed project unless it's the "GPLv2 or later" license and if that's the case and you use GPLv3 licensed code then it's effecitively GPLv3 licensed project. The Mir license is GPL3-only so if there were to ever be GPLv4 license you couldn't use Mir source code with that either. KWin for example has explicitly said that they don't want to depend on GPLv3 licensed projects.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Honton View Post
                          Canonical gets a broad license for all the code, the individual contributors do not. Asymmetry.
                          You meant like not letting the contributor to relicense the code , let's say,to a proprietary non-free code without Canonical permission ? For Canonicals signatures projects and open source code sake, i do not see any problem with that. Flip flopping positions between "individual authors rights" or "community benefits" is contradictory and only demonstrate hypocritical bias.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dee. View Post
                            They've demoed a unit. They've been heavily investing in Wayland development, and Intel has no other reason to invest in Wayland - their GPUs aren't used in workstations/render farms, or gaming.
                            Intel are trying to get their chips used in mobile platforms, phone/tablets, this a big reason to be investing in Wayland/Tizen.

                            Originally posted by dee. View Post
                            They've also very invested in Tizen development. Companies don't invest in products they don't intend to use.

                            http://www.tizenexperts.com/2013/05/...nference-2013/
                            I have always seen Meego/Tizen from Intels perspective as a research and development product more than anything else. Demoing what can be done and showing it off hoping that someone will pick up the technology themselves and use it (in the process purchasing many intel chips). However I expect this to be used in niche areas such as phones, in car systems, etc not as a PC.

                            Originally posted by dee. View Post
                            And what exactly makes you think so?
                            Intel would be mad to try to take on Microsoft (one of its biggest partners) at its own game and there is little reason for Intel to do so. When they started Moblin I recall they were sick of the slow pace at which companies like Microsoft were innovating and making use of their hardware, this was when Netbooks were the latest thing and Windows was to slow and heavy to be any good at running on the first gen Atoms. These days there are other options out there helping to sell Intels hardware, Android, ChromeOS, and even dare I say it Ubuntu.

                            Originally posted by dee. View Post
                            They may or may not launch it themselves, the actual ultrabooks, laptops, tablets etc. may be released by some independent OEM/hardware vendor in partnership with Intel. Regardless, even if they don't launch the product themselves, they still benefit, because the devices will be using Intel CPUs and GPUs.

                            Also, Moblin was way too immature, Meego plans fell apart because Nokia Eloped away from the project, so now they have Tizen - which is really just the logical continuation of the same plans. The difference is, the platform is now finally maturing to the point where it is feasible to use it in consumer products.
                            I wish it were true I just don't see it happening in the PC world at all. The only way I can see a Tizen PC being made is if Tizen is a huge success for Samsung on Mobile and they decide to do some kind of laptop spin off, but thats a big IF and also many years away if its going to happen at all.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Teho View Post
                              I believe Tizen will be more open in the future than it has been in the past (which isn't saying much...). I would assume that Tizen is also a major reason for Intel's contributions to projects like Bluez, oFono, Wayland, neard, ConnMan... so in that sense it's very notable. However comparing it to Ubuntu is bit difficult as the other is getting more open while the other is closing down. In the light of recent events for example, Tizen will be using Wayland like rest of the GNU/Linux community while Ubuntu will use Mir that no one else does, the same is true with systemd/Upstart (Tizen uses systemd).
                              That's encouraging. The contibution process document you linked was also encouraging. These are both good signs. However, Wayland / systemd / etc. and a well-defined code contribution process do not prevent the development and support of vendor lock-in in Tizen. Based on Intel's past actions vendor lock-in remains an unresolved concern with regards to Intel's motives, and that is the source of my skepticism. I choose not to debate about Tizen itself because I have no evidence and don't follow the project like you seem to. But I do thank you for sharing information.

                              For the record, I am thrilled about all that Intel is doing for the open source world these days. I don't mean to sound ungrateful.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Teho View Post
                                I believe Tizen will be more open in the future than it has been in the past (which isn't saying much...). I would assume that Tizen is also a major reason for Intel's contributions to projects like Bluez, oFono, Wayland, neard, ConnMan... so in that sense it's very notable. However comparing it to Ubuntu is bit difficult as the other is getting more open while the other is closing down. In the light of recent events for example, Tizen will be using Wayland like rest of the GNU/Linux community while Ubuntu will use Mir that no one else does, the same is true with systemd/Upstart (Tizen uses systemd).
                                I would like to point out that systemd uptake in Linux is far from universal.
                                There are several major distributions that have not made the switch and probably won't due to distro specific reasons.
                                These include Gentoo, Slackware, Funtoo, Ubuntu, Android, Chrome OS, Firefox OS, Linux Mint, PCLinuxOS, Puppy, every current stable Debian and RHEL clone and all non-Linux OS's to name a few.

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