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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bestia View Post
    Michael seems to be neglecting the known regressions list which is huge. Starting with performance and then drag and drop not working and no clipboard manager.
    Yeah, there's still a fair way to go. But it sounds like the core pieces are done... what's left are the things that weren't critical to get things running, things that could be put to one side and fixed later. Things severe enough to block a release, but which don't get in the way of people working on other parts of the porting effort.

    It's the usual story for porting jobs... there's a certain amount of effort that's a bottleneck, that has to be completed by a small number of people before you can start throwing people at problems...

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    • #17
      any word when xwayland will be merged? any ideas?

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      • #18
        mmm, the strange part is Michael mentions that performance it not on par/better than X. I thought a port to Wayland would magically boost performance without the need to optimize the code. I just hope there aren't surprises at the end resulting on X being faster than Wayland, maturity will tell (3 more years?)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by TheOne View Post
          mmm, the strange part is Michael mentions that performance it not on par/better than X. I thought a port to Wayland would magically boost performance without the need to optimize the code. I just hope there aren't surprises at the end resulting on X being faster than Wayland, maturity will tell (3 more years?)
          i don't like gnome shell but ill reply anyway the gnome team did a fast port to get in up and running for development and to show off at the upcoming linuxcon's and if you look at E19 even in development it boots over 30% faster under wayland vs xorg

          this is what you're talking about?
          Other items still being looked at by developers is the Wayland performance not yet being up to par, keyboard accessibility has some issues, and there's a handful of bugs that are considered regressions in GNOME 3.10.
          even the raspberry pi gains a lot of graphics speed using wayland>xorg
          http://www.linux.com/news/embedded-m...and-replaces-x

          it was 100% stupidly for Canonical to use the mir fork over wayland

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          • #20
            If anyone here mentions this stupid meaningless buzzword "fast/faster" again I'll punch him through his monitor...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
              If anyone here mentions this stupid meaningless buzzword "fast/faster" again I'll punch him through his monitor...
              what about Speeded up? or Speed? and i was a little off it was only over 25% more Speed over E18 on start up

              see lQQk i even fixed the developers quote
              But to put it in perspective, E19 currently, before optimization has begun, starts over 25% (more speed) than E18.

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              • #22
                When comparing boot times of two comparable systems I think the term "faster" is clear and unambiguous. Performance is different.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by TheOne View Post
                  mmm, the strange part is Michael mentions that performance it not on par/better than X. I thought a port to Wayland would magically boost performance without the need to optimize the code. I just hope there aren't surprises at the end resulting on X being faster than Wayland, maturity will tell (3 more years?)
                  wayland is vsynced by default, so if you simply wanna fight an FPS war, X would be faster because wayland max would be refresh freq, wayland focus is perfect and fluid frames not hit 500000FPS tearing hell.

                  notice that wayland don't magically make things faster, it make things more fluid and sometimes faster, why?

                  the performance is set by the max your GPU can handle, wayland or not you cannot go faster than your GPU can handle, so why wayland?

                  well in a nutshell this sentence explain how X handle your GPU "you go to a restaurant and to make an order you need 5 guys, the first translate your english order to japanese the next translate it from japanese to german then next from german to french the next from french to spanish and the last translate from spanish to finally write your order in english for no reason at all", in the last years X guys train those guys to translate very fast but still they make you lose a lot of time, wayland on the other hand is like this "you go directly to the chef and say i want this and that and a bit of that things over there plus this 3 drinks i got from the fridge, all this sum 100$ take the money and voila go and eat", so gain back magically all the performance that all those translation wasted.

                  now the important thing about this and the biggest gain is fluidity, perfect frames, nonblocking render, etc. aka graphic quality and better GPU resource usage

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                    wayland is vsynced by default, so if you simply wanna fight an FPS war, X would be faster because wayland max would be refresh freq, wayland focus is perfect and fluid frames not hit 500000FPS tearing hell.

                    notice that wayland don't magically make things faster, it make things more fluid and sometimes faster, why?

                    the performance is set by the max your GPU can handle, wayland or not you cannot go faster than your GPU can handle, so why wayland?

                    well in a nutshell this sentence explain how X handle your GPU "you go to a restaurant and to make an order you need 5 guys, the first translate your english order to japanese the next translate it from japanese to german then next from german to french the next from french to spanish and the last translate from spanish to finally write your order in english for no reason at all", in the last years X guys train those guys to translate very fast but still they make you lose a lot of time, wayland on the other hand is like this "you go directly to the chef and say i want this and that and a bit of that things over there plus this 3 drinks i got from the fridge, all this sum 100$ take the money and voila go and eat", so gain back magically all the performance that all those translation wasted.

                    now the important thing about this and the biggest gain is fluidity, perfect frames, nonblocking render, etc. aka graphic quality and better GPU resource usage
                    Doesn't that mean Wayland will be faster? Aren't those unneeded steps in the middle consuming GPU and CPU power?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by sarmad View Post
                      Doesn't that mean Wayland will be faster? Aren't those unneeded steps in the middle consuming GPU and CPU power?
                      is an application performance was getting holded back by the overload of all those unneeeded layers, yes with wayland will gain automagically better performance but if this app is doing something very stupid and that is the point holding back most of the performance wayland won't automagically fix it and in fact can be slower[same applies to Mir] since those old X hacks to make that stupid code go faster won't be there anymore

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                        wayland is vsynced by default, so if you simply wanna fight an FPS war, X would be faster because wayland max would be refresh freq, wayland focus is perfect and fluid frames not hit 500000FPS tearing hell.

                        notice that wayland don't magically make things faster, it make things more fluid and sometimes faster, why?

                        the performance is set by the max your GPU can handle, wayland or not you cannot go faster than your GPU can handle, so why wayland?

                        well in a nutshell this sentence explain how X handle your GPU "you go to a restaurant and to make an order you need 5 guys, the first translate your english order to japanese the next translate it from japanese to german then next from german to french the next from french to spanish and the last translate from spanish to finally write your order in english for no reason at all", in the last years X guys train those guys to translate very fast but still they make you lose a lot of time, wayland on the other hand is like this "you go directly to the chef and say i want this and that and a bit of that things over there plus this 3 drinks i got from the fridge, all this sum 100$ take the money and voila go and eat", so gain back magically all the performance that all those translation wasted.

                        now the important thing about this and the biggest gain is fluidity, perfect frames, nonblocking render, etc. aka graphic quality and better GPU resource usage
                        Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                        is an application performance was getting holded back by the overload of all those unneeeded layers, yes with wayland will gain automagically better performance but if this app is doing something very stupid and that is the point holding back most of the performance wayland won't automagically fix it and in fact can be slower[same applies to Mir] since those old X hacks to make that stupid code go faster won't be there anymore
                        The Vertical Synchronization from GPU Drivers and the Wayland Time Stamps are not the same so what are you talking about? Wayland is a new way of doing things

                        what Vertical Synchronization really is not Time Stamps
                        http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                          The Vertical Synchronization from GPU Drivers and the Wayland Time Stamps are not the same so what are you talking about? Wayland is a new way of doing things

                          what Vertical Synchronization really is not Time Stamps
                          http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593
                          well im pretty sure timestamps and vsync don't exclude each other but maybe a wayland dev could go into the details of how they can interact with each other, using simple logic you need at least the freq of the vertical refresh since it make no sense to render faster than the vertical refresh when you can use that exceeding time to save power or other more interestesting functions other than discard 300 frames without never reach a front buffer.

                          btw i mean vsync for weston and other compositor, couldnt edit after realize used the wrong word

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                            is an application performance was getting holded back by the overload of all those unneeeded layers, yes with wayland will gain automagically better performance but if this app is doing something very stupid and that is the point holding back most of the performance wayland won't automagically fix it and in fact can be slower[same applies to Mir] since those old X hacks to make that stupid code go faster won't be there anymore
                            What about the following:
                            * Does the desktop environment itself (Gnome Shell for example) become faster (i.e. higher frame rate, faster response or less lag)? Things like moving windows, effects, animations, etc.
                            * With Wayland, isn't the application going to be rendering its own graphics directly to the frame buffer without going through any out-of-process middle man? This, in theory, should make the rendering part of GUI applications faster. I understand that apps that are graphically heavy (games for example) will not be faster because the bottleneck will be the GPU itself, but GUI effects aren't heavy and should in theory become more fluid (higher frame rate). Am I right?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
                              Except that it's not quite rock solid. As mentioned earlier, with them focusing on Wayland support they caused up a ton of regressions and new bugs (granted, on the wayland branch only).

                              Also, not much work went into bug-fixes for the new features of 3.10 (X11 version) so don't expect the initial release to be very usable. I'd say to wait to use it until the first bugfix release :P
                              Bugs with 3.10 on wayland is to be expected, this is the first release of gnome that can run on wayland, its obviously not meant for non-testing use yet... The X11 version is still the default, and as you mentioned these regressions are only to do with the wayland branch. We should see the wayland version become fully usable around gnome 3.12 hopefully.

                              And I'm going to need a [citation needed] on "3.10 being buggy on X11 because they've been working on wayland". I do actually kind of agree with you though, but regardless of wayland work gnome .0 releases tend to have some sort of silly major bug(s) usually, so it is a good idea to wait for a point release before upgrading. I get the feeling gnome doesn't have enough beta testers. For example when gnome 3.8 came out there was an INCREDIBLY annoying bug where GTK3 apps would not remember their window size, would often open in a very tiny size, and/or randomly resize when using them, was practically unusable and wasn't fixed until multiple point releases later :/
                              Last edited by bwat47; 09-07-2013, 01:00 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by sarmad View Post
                                What about the following:
                                * Does the desktop environment itself (Gnome Shell for example) become faster (i.e. higher frame rate, faster response or less lag)? Things like moving windows, effects, animations, etc.
                                * With Wayland, isn't the application going to be rendering its own graphics directly to the frame buffer without going through any out-of-process middle man? This, in theory, should make the rendering part of GUI applications faster. I understand that apps that are graphically heavy (games for example) will not be faster because the bottleneck will be the GPU itself, but GUI effects aren't heavy and should in theory become more fluid (higher frame rate). Am I right?
                                1.) again is not "faster" in most cases since those effects are already in opengl/gles/glsl but fluid and glitches free, so the right terms would responsiveness, fluidity, clean, color accurate, frame quality, no tearing, no jagging, etc. faster is too ambiguos.

                                2.) yes and see 1

                                ofc an good side effect is that you get the chance of look at your code and improve it when you are porting to EGL/wayland and in some cases remove lots of bottlenecks that will translate in more FPS or even find ways to do more interesting effects since X is not in the middle anymore or even heavily improve quality maintaining efficient FPS.

                                the only thing that instantly improve when you go the wayland way is memory bandwith pressure[RAM/FB/PCIE], since you don't need to push back and forth 3 or 4 times the same data to finally get X to render a frame and you get rid of that nasty X IPC but not necessarily translate in "faster" or more FPS unless your GPU/CPU are very weak, it just liberate wasted resources that can be now used efficiently and is up to the client how to improve the experience puting those recoverd resources to work.

                                in resume wayland work is give you the tools and get out of your way and the wayland clients jobs is use those tools as efficiently as possible, so depending the client, so they can focus on Quality or performance or color accuracy or new effects/techniques,etc.

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