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Reasons For Losing Motivation In Wayland

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  • #11
    Originally posted by chris200x9 View Post
    Personally I'm losing interest because it only works on the open drivers. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if they had PM functionality since the performance is already good enough in the open drivers, but without PM the open drivers are pretty much useless for everything except starting house fires.
    Intel drivers for linux have (always ?) been open-source for a good while. So no problems there.
    AMD drivers are getting into very good shape and are backed by AMD itself (maybe not as much as it should be, but they keep on improving the closed source ones in the meanwhile).

    Only leaves the nvidia drivers. That is a problem. But i don't see any reason for nvidia to support an unused display server just yet. If it became widely used, i have no doubts that nvidia would be quick to support it.

    Bottom line, i don't really see a big problem in the driver department.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by tehehe View Post
      High five. If it won't be using binary drivers (or binary drivers won't have necessary bits for wayland) wayland simply doesn't exist for me. I am using Nvidia hardware and I like to play games - closed drivers have all the features and quality I need and novueau is beyond terrible.
      I think Nvidia is taking a wait and see approach. nouveau driver runs some 3 games like Extreme Tux Racers fine, it will be a matter of time when nouveau gains more functionalities based on OpenGL 4.3 or OpenGL ES 3.0. Be glad the nv driver developed by Nvidia themselves is no more because if was a complete garbage.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by chris200x9 View Post
        Personally I'm losing interest because it only works on the open drivers. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if they had PM functionality since the performance is already good enough in the open drivers, but without PM the open drivers are pretty much useless for everything except starting house fires.
        Why you guys don't use opensource, but still post bullshit?..!
        PM is *here*, its dynamic pm that is not here. Its not fatal.

        Intel: PM - full
        AMD: PM - manual state switch (high/low)
        Nouvau: PM - prior to Fermi - full, Fermi and up - minimal(only low)

        Also, follow this advice.
        Without opensource drivers, there won't be any wayland, at all!

        This is same old BS as with Logitech crap. If Logitech refuses to support Linux, its Logitech sucking, not Linux.
        If Nvidia or Catalyst don't support Wayland, its them sucking, not Wayland. Also, Wayland is new technology, so chicken-egg. This problem never exists with opensource!

        Damn, here for you

        Originally posted by finalzone View Post
        I think Nvidia is taking a wait and see approach. nouveau driver runs some 3 games like Extreme Tux Racers fine, it will be a matter of time when nouveau gains more functionalities based on OpenGL 4.3 or OpenGL ES 3.0. Be glad the nv driver developed by Nvidia themselves is no more because if was a complete garbage.
        Nouveau runs anything that radeon or intel run, namely OpenGL3.3.
        The problem with nouveau is lack of motivation behind its development, due to nvidia not opensourcing anything.
        This is especially problematic with reclocking on Fermi and up, so the card is kept in lowest power mode, always.
        Last edited by brosis; 06-12-2013, 02:34 PM.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by brosis View Post
          If Nvidia or Catalyst don't support Wayland, its them sucking, not Wayland.
          But the end result is the same.

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          • #15
            PM is *here*, its dynamic pm that is not here. Its not fatal.
            It certainly is fatal for a lot of laptop users, especially those who want to run a 3D desktop.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by brosis View Post
              AMD: PM - manual state switch (high/low)
              Why not inform before posting bullshit?
              Even on low power-settings my laptop (and those of many others with AMD chipsets) runs 15C hotter than on Catalyst, making this driver unusable on the hardware. So what does it matter that there is manual settings if it is still crap? And yes, there is a bug report for it, marked as critical, but nothing happens. I suspect just because AMD is working on power-saving code that maybe will released, maybe not, dependent on what the legal department says.
              Catalyst is a must on that machine and if you look at AMD's enormous development speed maybe we will see Wayland support in 3-5 years in Catalyst.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by brosis View Post
                Why you guys don't use opensource, but still post bullshit?..!

                Nouvau: PM - prior to Fermi - full, Fermi and up - minimal(only low)
                [...]
                Nouveau runs anything that radeon or intel run, namely OpenGL3.3.
                [...]
                The problem with nouveau is lack of motivation behind its development, due to nvidia not opensourcing anything.
                This is especially problematic with reclocking on Fermi and up, so the card is kept in lowest power mode, always.
                Well, as a Nouveau developer working on power management, I must say that power management on Nouveau is far from full! We managed to get some initial power management for some cards, but it isn't stable for others. We are still working on reverse engineering all that!

                Also, Nouveau (just like any other Gallium driver) only supports OpenGL 3.1. Support is coming slowly but surely.

                The problem with nouveau isn't the lack of motivation. It is both the lack of time from current devs (most of us are students) and lack of qualified man power! As for not having docs, it is quite possible that if we had all the docs, we would become bored and wouldn't work on it as much (even though, as far as PM goes, implementing the driver takes me like 0.1% of my time, the rest goes to reverse engineering).

                In my case I would love to have some kind of PLL programming guide explaining me stuff I cannot possibly reverse engineer without an electrical engineering degree and an electronic microscope. This part is no fun for me :s

                Anyway, I am writing a paper on power management for NVidia GPUs, I'll try to advertise it so as you can have an idea of what full PM means!

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by brosis View Post
                  Why you guys don't use opensource, but still post bullshit?..!
                  PM is *here*, its dynamic pm that is not here. Its not fatal.

                  Intel: PM - full
                  AMD: PM - manual state switch (high/low)
                  Nouvau: PM - prior to Fermi - full, Fermi and up - minimal(only low)

                  Also, follow this advice.
                  Without opensource drivers, there won't be any wayland, at all!

                  This is same old BS as with Logitech crap. If Logitech refuses to support Linux, its Logitech sucking, not Linux.
                  If Nvidia or Catalyst don't support Wayland, its them sucking, not Wayland. Also, Wayland is new technology, so chicken-egg. This problem never exists with opensource!

                  Damn, here for you


                  Nouveau runs anything that radeon or intel run, namely OpenGL3.3.
                  The problem with nouveau is lack of motivation behind its development, due to nvidia not opensourcing anything.
                  This is especially problematic with reclocking on Fermi and up, so the card is kept in lowest power mode, always.
                  Ok how about this "there is no GOOD PM for open drivers, manual or otherwise." On catalyst my laptop never over heats even when playing steam games with the FOSS drivers on low it overheats when doing *anything* other than just browsing.

                  Also I'm not saying wayland sucks because the FOSS drivers suck, I'm just saying a good technology that relies on sucky technology will get nowhere until the sucky software is actually the least bit useful.
                  Last edited by chris200x9; 06-12-2013, 03:23 PM.

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                  • #19
                    only intel

                    only intel have a good opensource drivers, because the company are really dev the drivers.

                    radeon makes me crazy on my laptop and i cant use hybrid graphics.

                    most of users have a laptop and the opensource radeon are not a solution for them

                    about wayland its more of the same, 5 years and not ready, too much time for some people (people who use laptops) and have hybrid systems who really don t like xorg

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by MPF View Post
                      Well, as a Nouveau developer working on power management, I must say that power management on Nouveau is far from full! We managed to get some initial power management for some cards, but it isn't stable for others. We are still working on reverse engineering all that!

                      Also, Nouveau (just like any other Gallium driver) only supports OpenGL 3.1. Support is coming slowly but surely.

                      The problem with nouveau isn't the lack of motivation. It is both the lack of time from current devs (most of us are students) and lack of qualified man power! As for not having docs, it is quite possible that if we had all the docs, we would become bored and wouldn't work on it as much (even though, as far as PM goes, implementing the driver takes me like 0.1% of my time, the rest goes to reverse engineering).

                      In my case I would love to have some kind of PLL programming guide explaining me stuff I cannot possibly reverse engineer without an electrical engineering degree and an electronic microscope. This part is no fun for me :s

                      Anyway, I am writing a paper on power management for NVidia GPUs, I'll try to advertise it so as you can have an idea of what full PM means!
                      This is very interesting. I once heard somewhere that missing manpower was explicitly not a problem concerning the Noveau project,
                      but this post of yours seems to say the opposite.

                      Are there any guides/are you guys writing notes of your work that would enable other volunteers to pick up
                      some of the work of REing, to speed the whole process up?

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