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Reasons For Losing Motivation In Wayland

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  • #16
    Originally posted by brosis View Post
    AMD: PM - manual state switch (high/low)
    Why not inform before posting bullshit?
    Even on low power-settings my laptop (and those of many others with AMD chipsets) runs 15C hotter than on Catalyst, making this driver unusable on the hardware. So what does it matter that there is manual settings if it is still crap? And yes, there is a bug report for it, marked as critical, but nothing happens. I suspect just because AMD is working on power-saving code that maybe will released, maybe not, dependent on what the legal department says.
    Catalyst is a must on that machine and if you look at AMD's enormous development speed maybe we will see Wayland support in 3-5 years in Catalyst.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by brosis View Post
      Why you guys don't use opensource, but still post bullshit?..!

      Nouvau: PM - prior to Fermi - full, Fermi and up - minimal(only low)
      [...]
      Nouveau runs anything that radeon or intel run, namely OpenGL3.3.
      [...]
      The problem with nouveau is lack of motivation behind its development, due to nvidia not opensourcing anything.
      This is especially problematic with reclocking on Fermi and up, so the card is kept in lowest power mode, always.
      Well, as a Nouveau developer working on power management, I must say that power management on Nouveau is far from full! We managed to get some initial power management for some cards, but it isn't stable for others. We are still working on reverse engineering all that!

      Also, Nouveau (just like any other Gallium driver) only supports OpenGL 3.1. Support is coming slowly but surely.

      The problem with nouveau isn't the lack of motivation. It is both the lack of time from current devs (most of us are students) and lack of qualified man power! As for not having docs, it is quite possible that if we had all the docs, we would become bored and wouldn't work on it as much (even though, as far as PM goes, implementing the driver takes me like 0.1% of my time, the rest goes to reverse engineering).

      In my case I would love to have some kind of PLL programming guide explaining me stuff I cannot possibly reverse engineer without an electrical engineering degree and an electronic microscope. This part is no fun for me :s

      Anyway, I am writing a paper on power management for NVidia GPUs, I'll try to advertise it so as you can have an idea of what full PM means!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by brosis View Post
        Why you guys don't use opensource, but still post bullshit?..!
        PM is *here*, its dynamic pm that is not here. Its not fatal.

        Intel: PM - full
        AMD: PM - manual state switch (high/low)
        Nouvau: PM - prior to Fermi - full, Fermi and up - minimal(only low)

        Also, follow this advice.
        Without opensource drivers, there won't be any wayland, at all!

        This is same old BS as with Logitech crap. If Logitech refuses to support Linux, its Logitech sucking, not Linux.
        If Nvidia or Catalyst don't support Wayland, its them sucking, not Wayland. Also, Wayland is new technology, so chicken-egg. This problem never exists with opensource!

        Damn, here for you


        Nouveau runs anything that radeon or intel run, namely OpenGL3.3.
        The problem with nouveau is lack of motivation behind its development, due to nvidia not opensourcing anything.
        This is especially problematic with reclocking on Fermi and up, so the card is kept in lowest power mode, always.
        Ok how about this "there is no GOOD PM for open drivers, manual or otherwise." On catalyst my laptop never over heats even when playing steam games with the FOSS drivers on low it overheats when doing *anything* other than just browsing.

        Also I'm not saying wayland sucks because the FOSS drivers suck, I'm just saying a good technology that relies on sucky technology will get nowhere until the sucky software is actually the least bit useful.
        Last edited by chris200x9; 06-12-2013, 03:23 PM.

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        • #19
          only intel

          only intel have a good opensource drivers, because the company are really dev the drivers.

          radeon makes me crazy on my laptop and i cant use hybrid graphics.

          most of users have a laptop and the opensource radeon are not a solution for them

          about wayland its more of the same, 5 years and not ready, too much time for some people (people who use laptops) and have hybrid systems who really don t like xorg

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MPF View Post
            Well, as a Nouveau developer working on power management, I must say that power management on Nouveau is far from full! We managed to get some initial power management for some cards, but it isn't stable for others. We are still working on reverse engineering all that!

            Also, Nouveau (just like any other Gallium driver) only supports OpenGL 3.1. Support is coming slowly but surely.

            The problem with nouveau isn't the lack of motivation. It is both the lack of time from current devs (most of us are students) and lack of qualified man power! As for not having docs, it is quite possible that if we had all the docs, we would become bored and wouldn't work on it as much (even though, as far as PM goes, implementing the driver takes me like 0.1% of my time, the rest goes to reverse engineering).

            In my case I would love to have some kind of PLL programming guide explaining me stuff I cannot possibly reverse engineer without an electrical engineering degree and an electronic microscope. This part is no fun for me :s

            Anyway, I am writing a paper on power management for NVidia GPUs, I'll try to advertise it so as you can have an idea of what full PM means!
            This is very interesting. I once heard somewhere that missing manpower was explicitly not a problem concerning the Noveau project,
            but this post of yours seems to say the opposite.

            Are there any guides/are you guys writing notes of your work that would enable other volunteers to pick up
            some of the work of REing, to speed the whole process up?

            Comment


            • #21
              Somewhere something not fixed/merged/updated? It will be hard for one (open source) project to develop while relying on many other projects. Canonical has the advantage of developing Mir targeted at smaller range of applications and code - for Unity. And they can always do-it-yourself and hack/patch or drop code of external projects. They don't need upstream actions as much as Wayland.

              Maybe some organization/company has to make deadlines and some bounties for making stuff done?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                This is very interesting. I once heard somewhere that missing manpower was explicitly not a problem concerning the Noveau project,
                but this post of yours seems to say the opposite.

                Are there any guides/are you guys writing notes of your work that would enable other volunteers to pick up
                some of the work of REing, to speed the whole process up?
                You must confuse money with man power as we indeed said that money wasn't the problem (except for buying Quadro cards). Man power is the single problem of all open source projects and ours is badly hit by this. How can we compete with nvidia if we only have less than 10 people working part time on the driver, without documentation Luckily, we gallium3D helps factoring out code between 3D/CL open source drivers devs.

                As for a list of projects to do, I try to propose projects for the GSoC/EVoC. Otherwise, all the documentation and most tools that we use are centralized in the envytools repo: https://github.com/pathscale/envytools/

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by DanL View Post
                  It certainly is fatal for a lot of laptop users, especially those who want to run a 3D desktop.
                  Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                  Why not inform before posting bullshit?
                  Even on low power-settings my laptop (and those of many others with AMD chipsets) runs 15C hotter than on Catalyst, making this driver unusable on the hardware. So what does it matter that there is manual settings if it is still crap? And yes, there is a bug report for it, marked as critical, but nothing happens. I suspect just because AMD is working on power-saving code that maybe will released, maybe not, dependent on what the legal department says.
                  Catalyst is a must on that machine and if you look at AMD's enormous development speed maybe we will see Wayland support in 3-5 years in Catalyst.
                  I had a Xi 1554 with Mobility X1900 and it drove 3D desktop just fine in low profile.
                  At high profile, it was 60C hot and ACPI fan did the job. Can you give that bug please?
                  So for my laptop, PM is not critical. Its BIG problem, but not critical; but no way any Catalyst for me, ever!

                  Originally posted by johnc View Post
                  But the end result is the same.
                  The end result does not really matter so long it constitutes a problem. In this case the piping matters.
                  Last edited by brosis; 06-12-2013, 04:13 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                    beside remember wayland xwayland mesa Xorg drivers Xorg+dri3000 are being developed in parallallel, so is not like they are sitting in their asses watching the roof and Canonical's Mir just leech this changes since they don't contribute anything at all giving the sensation that Mir is getting done faster which is false. make OSS stack license incompatible with Mir from X to Kernel modules and lets see how fast can Mir rewrite all that code themselves
                    Well the whole point whit open source is that you should take what's good.
                    Also Wayland developers are also leeching on Mesa, Cairo, the Linux kernel or whatever.

                    Why should people who write a display server write drivers? And why should people who write drivers have to write a display server?
                    If every single project had to develop a whole new os including kernel, drivers, display server themselves we would be stuck in in the stone-age.

                    I also find the critic very funny on another plane 'cause if Canonical started to create their own drivers people would scream Not In Home instead.

                    Guess you are never going to be happy? My recommendation, chill out and have a beer instead.

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                    • #25
                      @ML who spewed forth this gibberish in the "article":
                      Cairo's current build testing is a mess.
                      Cairo has nothing, I repeat nothing whatsoever to do with Wayland. Stop trolling the community, ML.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by MPF View Post
                        Well, as a Nouveau developer working on power management, I must say that power management on Nouveau is far from full! We managed to get some initial power management for some cards, but it isn't stable for others. We are still working on reverse engineering all that!
                        Hi MuPuF! I have suggested prior that you guys use kickstarter-ish scheme for this: realistic goals - money - donations - mercenary work.
                        My vision is that there is no need to posses 100 developers, there is need for good organization where personal interests (I am *not* talking about altruism here) will drive the development. And 100 developers will come.

                        For example, you could start to use phoronix mass media, to post monthly refresher on:
                        - accomplished goals (essentially changelog)
                        - ongoing efforts, requiring attention (for contributors)
                        - required efforts, requiring known specific donation (for supporters and mercenary developers)
                        - hardware requirements, for those interested in hardware donation
                        - testing USB images, for people interested in ability to run your tests on their nvidia hardware, effortlessly and without interaction; and then submit data to you.

                        I understand that you run it as a student project, but if you don't take it seriously, nothing serious can emerge. You know it anyways, so don't take this as a rant

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Pajn View Post
                          Well, there is XWayland too.

                          But I agree Cairo and Mesa should also be fully unit tested.
                          Unit testing is *not* a magic bullet. It's certainly a very useful tool for developers, but having automated tests isn't going magically transform your development process such that bugs and breaks never occur. There's plenty of crap code out there with 100% test coverage...

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                          • #28
                            This article has specifically gone out of its way to piss me off it seems. The problems stated are not even Wayland issues but have deducted Wayland's reputation. Regardless of the viability of current Wayland, this article is complete and utter FUD with a misleading title. Regardless of that, if you read the mailing list, support was still provided in response to the post for both cairo and mesa bugs, which is laughingly all it takes to get someone to notice a problem. There is no need for some bullshit drama that has now been caused over a single post of a frustrated individual.

                            Be realistic please... it's fine to not use Wayland now... there's not enough application support for every day use yet. Even finding a capable web browser, especially one that we're familiar with, is a very daunting task. That does not reduce the potential or usability of Wayland itself, only the usability of those applications that have yet to bring such support.

                            Stop inadvertently blaming wayland for things it cannot and will never control.

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                            • #29
                              About driver...

                              Buy an Intel card. Their work as Open Source Development Centre deserve it.
                              That is the right approach. Their driver are closing the gap about the OpenGL pretty fastly. Soon they will achieve the parity with the last specification and from that time they will stay on pair easily. The power of their GPU increase year by year so as the optimization and power consumption. So buy Intel.
                              About nvidia, there is always a middle finger available for them and for their ancient, cronic and stupid way of thinking.
                              Wayland is the future, with or without nvidia.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
                                Buy an Intel card. Their work as Open Source Development Centre deserve it.
                                That is the right approach. Their driver are closing the gap about the OpenGL pretty fastly. Soon they will achieve the parity with the last specification and from that time they will stay on pair easily. The power of their GPU increase year by year so as the optimization and power consumption. So buy Intel.
                                About nvidia, there is always a middle finger available for them and for their ancient, cronic and stupid way of thinking.
                                Wayland is the future, with or without nvidia.
                                lol

                                this forum is the best

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