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Raspberry Pi Gets New Wayland Weston Renderer

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ssvb View Post
    By accelerating X, do you mean X11 EGL support for GLESv2? Or RENDER acceleration? Or something else?
    He's talking about accelerating composition, rather than rendering. You can do that with GLES if you like, and then hand the server back a single flat image to display, but that ignores the massive dedicated 2D composition hardware in the VideoCore completely, and gives you a much higher system load. The only way you can do anything similar with X is to not use compositing, because only then does the server know what it should actually be displaying, and where. Except then you get jitter, you get flicker, and we've stepped back 15 years in the evolution of desktop graphics.

    The Weston backend hands the display hardware a list of every single visible surface, their stacking order, which transformation(s) should be applied, their position, and so on, and then the VideoCore displays it all with zero software intervention.

    This isn't RPi-specific, it's really common on ARM platforms, especially ones targeted towards set-top boxes, in-vehicle, etc.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by daniels View Post
      Which, right now, isn't possible for them to do because of the userspace code required to interface with the VideoCore. So it can't provide KMS.


      Entirely due to limitations in X's architecture.
      Heeey look who's back, hey Daniel.

      Quick wayland-related question. How's touchpad acceleration going? Or is still on the "TODO" List? I know you had a lot on your plate so no biggie, just curious.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ericg View Post
        Heeey look who's back, hey Daniel.

        Quick wayland-related question. How's touchpad acceleration going? Or is still on the "TODO" List? I know you had a lot on your plate so no biggie, just curious.
        Hi there! Still on the TODO list, I'm afraid.

        I just wrote a blog post about the RPi stuff with a little more detail though, so I hope that makes up for it. http://fooishbar.org/tell-me-about/w...-raspberry-pi/

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        • #19
          Originally posted by daniels View Post
          Hi there! Still on the TODO list, I'm afraid.

          I just wrote a blog post about the RPi stuff with a little more detail though, so I hope that makes up for it. http://fooishbar.org/tell-me-about/w...-raspberry-pi/
          Actually a very interesting read, so thanks for the heads-up. I didn't even realize you had your own blog though looking at it, it seems pretty new haha.

          Once the touchpad work goes (Sorry, laptop user :P So I care about it haha) is that Weston work or libwayland work? Meaning: will Kwin have to copy-paste / re-implement your work or will it be automatically available to them as long as they are using version x.y.z of libwayland?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ericg View Post
            Actually a very interesting read, so thanks for the heads-up. I didn't even realize you had your own blog though looking at it, it seems pretty new haha.
            Yep, my blog was dead for a good couple of years, only just resurrected it.

            Originally posted by Ericg View Post
            Once the touchpad work goes (Sorry, laptop user :P So I care about it haha) is that Weston work or libwayland work? Meaning: will Kwin have to copy-paste / re-implement your work or will it be automatically available to them as long as they are using version x.y.z of libwayland?
            The plan is to make it common for all environments - Weston, Shell, etc - but that's much easier said than done. It's pretty tricky, and just expressing the level of functionality people expect from touchpads is difficult. But I've high hopes of it happening in a reusable library fairly soon.

            And, no problem. I live on a laptop, with a touchpad and tap-to-click. Infuriating when it doesn't work, or is crap!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by daniels View Post
              The plan is to make it common for all environments - Weston, Shell, etc - but that's much easier said than done. It's pretty tricky, and just expressing the level of functionality people expect from touchpads is difficult. But I've high hopes of it happening in a reusable library fairly soon.

              And, no problem. I live on a laptop, with a touchpad and tap-to-click. Infuriating when it doesn't work, or is crap!
              Glad to hear it will go into a reusable library. And yeah, I know that better than most. I've got the Dell XPS 13z with the Cypress touchpad that only JUST got a basic driver for it mainlined in 3.9. Related to the touchpad work... palm detection, and by extension, palm rejection: libwayland work / your-up-and-coming-reusable-library work? Or is that "a client problem"? One of the most frustrating things for me under Linux is crappy / non-existent palm rejection when I'm typing on the keyboard and my thumb brushes on my the trackpad and it either registers as a click or at least moves the mouse around. I know X has some rudimentary palm rejection work acessible via xorg.conf but it must depend on driver-support because on my Cypress its basically completely non-functional. Meaning: It never detects an accidental 'palm' and properly ignores it.

              I guess what I'm asking is: does the driver handle palm rejection, or does the userland input stack handle it? And if its the latter, will Wayland's be better than X's or basically the same?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                Glad to hear it will go into a reusable library. And yeah, I know that better than most. I've got the Dell XPS 13z with the Cypress touchpad that only JUST got a basic driver for it mainlined in 3.9. Related to the touchpad work... palm detection, and by extension, palm rejection: libwayland work / your-up-and-coming-reusable-library work? Or is that "a client problem"? One of the most frustrating things for me under Linux is crappy / non-existent palm rejection when I'm typing on the keyboard and my thumb brushes on my the trackpad and it either registers as a click or at least moves the mouse around. I know X has some rudimentary palm rejection work acessible via xorg.conf but it must depend on driver-support because on my Cypress its basically completely non-functional. Meaning: It never detects an accidental 'palm' and properly ignores it.

                I guess what I'm asking is: does the driver handle palm rejection, or does the userland input stack handle it? And if its the latter, will Wayland's be better than X's or basically the same?
                That's solely a driver problem. Although in this case, 'driver' really means userspace (i.e. Wayland or Xorg) rather than the kernel. I'd like to say Wayland's will be better, but annoyingly it's one of those things that really does require per-device tuning, particularly if you have a different sensor; MacBooks have Broadcom sensors (which are GREAT), most others have Synaptics (which are BAD), and then if you have anything else you can make a reasonable bet that it'll be TERRIBLE. But at least Broadcom works brilliantly out of the box, Synaptics is mostly standardised and working, but others - Cypress, ALPS, etc - are a total crapshoot I'm afraid.

                That being said, there's nothing infrastructural in Xorg that keeps it from being better. It's just that we don't have anyone actively working on it for Xorg, Wayland, or anything, right now.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by daniels View Post
                  MacBooks have Broadcom sensors (which are GREAT), most others have Synaptics (which are BAD), and then if you have anything else you can make a reasonable bet that it'll be TERRIBLE. But at least Broadcom works brilliantly out of the box, Synaptics is mostly standardised and working, but others - Cypress, ALPS, etc - are a total crapshoot I'm afraid.
                  And I suddenly have yet another reason to just buy a Macbook Pro / Macbook Air for my next laptop and throw Arch on it....

                  Thanks for the clarification Daniel, you're awesome :P

                  One last Wayland related question... Are you guys (dev team) at the point of using Wayland for your everyday work? I've started playing around with it more seriously on Arch, I just don't know what to do with it. I want to test it out, see how everythings working, but im just kind like "Awesome! Weston launches! Sweet! A terminal! ....Now what?"

                  EDIT: I lied. One other: status of XWayland? If you know, if not no biggie.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                    And I suddenly have yet another reason to just buy a Macbook Pro / Macbook Air for my next laptop and throw Arch on it....

                    Thanks for the clarification Daniel, you're awesome :P

                    One last Wayland related question... Are you guys (dev team) at the point of using Wayland for your everyday work? I've started playing around with it more seriously on Arch, I just don't know what to do with it. I want to test it out, see how everythings working, but im just kind like "Awesome! Weston launches! Sweet! A terminal! ....Now what?"

                    EDIT: I lied. One other: status of XWayland? If you know, if not no biggie.
                    Ha, no problem. Some of us (including krh) use Weston day to day, but some of us (including me) don't just yet for various reasons. If you have GTK+ built though then it's getting a lot closer to completeness every day, and the GNOME port is coming along. As for XWayland, it works but definitely - definitely - has bugs and rough edges. Louis-Francis, who did some of the RPi work for us, is working on fixing that though.

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                    • #25
                      And I finally got my blog post online, too. Here's a list of writings out there:

                      Raspberry Pi Foundation News, "Wayland preview"
                      http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/4053

                      Daniel Stone's blog, "Weston on Raspberry Pi", answers "why?"
                      http://fooishbar.org/tell-me-about/w...-raspberry-pi/

                      My blog, "Weston on Raspberry Pi Accelerated", answers "how?"
                      http://ppaalanen.blogspot.fi/2013/05...celerated.html

                      Collabora's Raspberry Pi case study, with the video
                      http://www.collabora.com/services/ca...es/raspberrypi

                      and the email has a few more:
                      http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ay/009461.html

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                        One last Wayland related question... Are you guys (dev team) at the point of using Wayland for your everyday work? I've started playing around with it more seriously on Arch, I just don't know what to do with it. I want to test it out, see how everythings working, but im just kind like "Awesome! Weston launches! Sweet! A terminal! ....Now what?"
                        .

                        No browser = not a usable computer


                        The closer to completion DE seem to be Enlightenment from git. (haven't tested it myself)

                        But again apps are missing.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                          No browser = not a usable computer
                          But again apps are missing.
                          I think I have read somewhere that Digias demo qt/webkit browser works with wayland?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Akka View Post
                            I think I have read somewhere that Digias demo qt/webkit browser works with wayland?
                            Read here.
                            Also the Kwin's maintainer (Martin) started to work on wayland, other than the gnome devs and the Qt devs, so seems like we will have something very close to be usable for the end of the year.
                            That plus the improvement on XWayland and the world's invasion can start!
                            Looking to last jolla annunciement and taking into consideration this topic from omgubuntu, wait a moment... in your opinion, omgubuntu knows what kind of display server tizen use?
                            LOL.
                            Funny things a part, the next half year will be interesting under many aspects.

                            Oh, right, congrats to all devs for the amazing work on RPi and Wayland/Weston!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by daniels View Post
                              Ha, no problem. Some of us (including krh) use Weston day to day, but some of us (including me) don't just yet for various reasons. If you have GTK+ built though then it's getting a lot closer to completeness every day, and the GNOME port is coming along. As for XWayland, it works but definitely - definitely - has bugs and rough edges. Louis-Francis, who did some of the RPi work for us, is working on fixing that though.
                              Yeah Arch has GTK+ built with the wayland backend so I could use a few of GTK programs I've got installed (im a KDE guy personally, hence why "a few")

                              I'm glad to hear that XWayland is coming along, its been asked about a few times here on the forums. There any shot at it being merged into the next X release? Or too much work for that timetable?

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