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Wayland/Weston Gets Forked As "GH-Next"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by TheOne View Post
    Pretty interesting, so it seems to be true what Ubuntu developers feared, wayland develoeprs not accepting patches or the ideas they had. So in the end the best decision was to start Mir.

    Only people that is really close to all of this can really know what is happening behind the scenes...
    Or you can read the mailing list, or the irc logs.

    Either way this guy is just having a repo to experiment/break things in. It's not really a "fork".

    And afaik, Canonical never submitted any patches to wayland or even talk to the developers.
    Last edited by n3wu53r; 03-25-2013, 12:06 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by timothyja View Post
      Are you sure you read the whole article? My post was highly relevant I was basically reaffirming his point..
      At the time I wrote that, I'd read only the first mailing list post that the article linked to, which mostly sounded like what I was describing - just a new development branch. But I've subsequently read some of the followup posts (such as the one you quote), which have a more unhappy tone.

      Unfortunately, it's hard to see exactly where the issue is - the other Wayland guys have expressed interest in at least some of his patches (like the xwayland titlebar buttons), so it's not like they've just shot him down, rejected all his contributions. I guess there must be some history there that's not apparent without going trawling list archives, but overall it sounds like he's focused on doing stuff that the core devs just aren't interested in dealing with at the moment.

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      • #18
        Ahem

        Originally posted by n3wu53r View Post
        Or you can read the mailing list, or the irc logs.

        Either way this guy is just having a repo to experiment/break things in. It's not really a "fork".

        And afaik, Canonical never submitted any patches to wayland or even talk to the developers.
        Ahem: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/wayland/...4e1fbe389775f7

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
          Unfortunately, it's hard to see exactly where the issue is - the other Wayland guys have expressed interest in at least some of his patches (like the xwayland titlebar buttons), so it's not like they've just shot him down, rejected all his contributions. I guess there must be some history there that's not apparent without going trawling list archives, but overall it sounds like he's focused on doing stuff that the core devs just aren't interested in dealing with at the moment.
          Again as I said in my initial post I totally understand where he is coming from. Your last sentence highlights the huge problem with FOSS currently and is what's causing his and others such as myself frustration. Unlike the pretty picture of community based open source projects that is told to young software developers at bed time the real landscape for most FOSS projects is a bunch of commercially backed gatekeepers who like you say have their own priority which is working on what their employer tells them to. This makes sense why would you pay someone to review patches that don't directly benifit your company, but highlights the need to balance projects better with both community and commercial maintainers.

          And l'm not talking about patches being totally ignored as usually the devs do find some downtime eventually to look at them but the problem is it can take months this means pinging the devs every few weeks or so otherwise they will be forgotten about ( or bugging upstream as this developer put it) all the while your frustration builds and you feel undervalued like the developer describes and why wouldnt you. It's all just down to prioritys and management Unfortunately although its even a goal for some projects to increase contributions very few do well at prioritising feedback to New contributions.
          Last edited by timothyja; 03-25-2013, 02:51 AM.

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          • #20
            we'd just fork the project and do whatever we want.

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            • #21
              Canonical developing Mir: shitstorm because Canonical wants control over their project.

              soreau forking wayland, introducing patches which break functionality: it's FOSS, you can do everything what you want.

              AFAIR, soreau was first to criticize Canonical on #wayland

              FOSS COMMUNITY'S HYPOCRISY.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
                Canonical developing Mir: shitstorm because Canonical wants control over their project.

                soreau forking wayland, introducing patches which break functionality: it's FOSS, you can do everything what you want.

                AFAIR, soreau was first to criticize Canonical on #wayland

                FOSS COMMUNITY'S HYPOCRISY.
                This "fork" is not meant to become a production-level display server used in actual distros. It's not meant to compete with Wayland, it's just a testbed for testing new stuff, like the maintainer says. To compare it with Mir is plain idiocy.

                But hey. Don't let the facts get in the way of fanboyism...

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by madjr View Post
                  I totally understand Mir now


                  Maybe he could contribute to ubuntu.
                  You totally understand nothing now.
                  First of all, if a patch must to be accepted no metter what, then there is no need for a maintainer, a bot is enough for to apply the patch when it arrive.
                  Second, as I quoted in my previuos post, there is a clear statement from Khr that explain very well the situation:
                  No. These patches breaks many of the core goals of wayland/weston with DE-like features.
                  <krh> weston isn't going to be a full DE, starting a new DE is specifically a non-goal of wayland
                  <krh> and I've always said that fleshing out wl_shell will have to wait until we have at least one real DE to driver the work
                  <krh> otherwise it's all just going to be guesswork
                  I highlight the important part: I've always said that fleshing out wl_shell will have to wait until we have at least one real DE to driver the work
                  So, basically, Scott want more work (and more response) on the DE-like features when khr show low interest in this aspect until a real DE start to driver the work.
                  Taking this in mind, it is logic that Scott had started to fork the repo for to have more freedom in the develop of the DE-feature, in any case, some part can to be extracted and applied upstream if needed. So you risk to enlarge the problem more than it deserve.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by brosis View Post
                    Wait, wasn't Ubuntu doing exactly that?

                    ---

                    Personally I find this idea huge waste of effort.

                    It would be a lot nicer, if the guy just did one single post describing all contributions he made, time and effort it took to submit and reason why there were not accepted.

                    That would place the ironsights exactly on the problem.
                    i would call this a waste of effort. it would change nothing, instead only start a uuseless discussion with no result.

                    Instead ... effort has split, and we have just another graphics system,.. wonderful for confusing beginner contributors and distro developers.
                    I am not criticizing him though, its still a decent decision.
                    please stop this "split effort" bullshit!
                    we are talking about open source projects. this is not a centralized controlled project development. in the past developement in oss went exactly like this, people were forking and porting back and merging.

                    you cannot expect that people that have something to contribute wait endlessly to get accepted by others controlling a project. it simply doesn't and never worked. though when their forks yields some good results THEN their contributions got sucked into other projects and one of the forks survived.

                    these are not split ressources, it is how it works without a central project management.

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                    • #25
                      Nothing to see here, walk along

                      If you actually read the follow-ups on the mailing list it becomes clear that:

                      - Weston is forked into a playground compositor. Weston is a reference compositor, so this was bound to happen eventually.
                      - Wayland isn't forked, it's just being branched to have some experimental patches to support some experimental things in the playground compositor.
                      - There's no flamewar or schism in the community

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                      • #26
                        Whatever this is about and/or turns into, his comments about frustrations with patches not being accepted upstream sounds like Mir wasn't so crazy for Canonical to pursue.

                        Before you spend your precious time writing a lengthy debunking, note the vague qualifiers I use. I'm not endorsing Mir in any way. Just stating what it looks like on the surface.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by akincer View Post
                          Whatever this is about and/or turns into, his comments about frustrations with patches not being accepted upstream sounds like Mir wasn't so crazy for Canonical to pursue.
                          Only that Mir is not at all about Wayland not accepting (not existing Canonical) patches, it is all about total control. Otherwise they would have stated that they won't work with the Wayland team because of this and invented bogus technical reasons.

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                          • #28
                            Mine was a meta comment about externally viewing Mir in the context of this situation and not about anything related to Canonical's decision making processes. In other words -- it might very well be that Mir is in the end the best decision for Canonical for completely accidental and/or unrelated reasons to their initial internal discussions technical inaccuracy notwithstanding.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by timothyja View Post
                              What exactly qualifies as hostility for you?
                              See libav/ffmpeg split.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                                This "fork" is not meant to become a production-level display server used in actual distros. It's not meant to compete with Wayland, it's just a testbed for testing new stuff, like the maintainer says. To compare it with Mir is plain idiocy.

                                But hey. Don't let the facts get in the way of fanboyism...
                                ++ THAT!

                                Omg, if of thousends of opensource developers out there some have different interests and they on objective level response with disagrement and have different goals, of course Ubuntu is allowed to become the next Microsoft?

                                Omg, if thats so... why do we not finaly have the new ubuntu-kernel. Linus is also a dictator and does each few weeks even sometimes not friendly tell to some people they should fuck themself and should not send him patches ever again.

                                Yes some of this developers, as linus told himself, where suicidal after getting his emails.

                                So please don't construct out of a small disagreement, with a very logical reason, (I would have wondered too, if the X-team would combine Gnome + Xorg-stack to one thing...), a reason for Canonical running amok.


                                EDIT:

                                I mean for what do we have git now? To manage some patchsets diff files or something like that, even svn where you needed a server produced some overhead, if you wanted your own version, and merging and stuff were more painfull... But with git to have a branch is easy and cheap, so where is the problem? Why must there be one central branch with everything from weston out in the world?

                                And if the idead of this guy are really that good, in 6 months he will be the main-developer of a new project forked from wayland or weston... and all distributions will only include his stuff after 1-2 years from now...
                                Last edited by blackiwid; 03-25-2013, 12:54 PM.

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