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  • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
    Of course windows remained and remains superior but Ubuntu was good also
    So what you are saying here is basically: I use the inferior solution, but instead of helping to make it better I bitch around on forums how it sucks. Like your bitching about Software Manager, you complain that something does not work as you want it to, but instead of looking into the issues and help to improve the software (and you state that you are a developer) you just complain about it and wait for someone else to fix the issues.
    I prefer the
    idiots who can code
    to the idiots that can code, but don't actually do anything.

    Comment


    • As it seems E people are also not interested in Mir.

      https://phab.enlightenment.org/phame...cking_wayland/

      Michael give those fine gentlemen some publicity.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
        As it seems E people are also not interested in Mir.

        https://phab.enlightenment.org/phame...cking_wayland/

        Michael give those fine gentlemen some publicity.
        well is to be expected since wayland is here now is mostly superior to Mir plus is backed by Xorg foundation and all major toolkit and DE which guarantee a long term healthy life.

        On the other hand Mir is witchcraft at this point and only backed by canonical and probably only will be supported by unity for a while since i seriously doubt canonical can keep up with out of tree patches for Qt/Gtk/Efl/Kde/Gnome/e17/etc. Actually i suspect in the end Mir will be for mobile ubuntu only and all desktop distros including ubuntu will support wayland because i suspect they will go the android way with ubuntu mobile and use an unity sdk for mobile apps with Qml and for some reason i suspect Mono with Qt bindings instead of C++ to try to grab many developers fast and fill their software store ASAP but prolly it will not support linux desktop apps easily at least.

        So Mir is probably a need for canonical to be able to dual license[GPL for community / closed source + DRM for actual phone makers] and link with SoC blobs drivers and have something workable fast enough to interest carriers and manufacturers in ubuntu mobile as another android plataform like but without google in your neck ofc with a store of ubuntu specific apps and i belive mark wanna make this mobile apps available in the ubuntu desktop store[mac/ios like] and for this wayland or Mir work fine enough and be easily abstracted in a lower layer[since in the desktop prolly they can use the FOSS version of mir or wayland freely]

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          Nobody gives a flying fuck about your community. Most users never find out such community exists.
          Users are part of the community BO$$.

          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          The community that you love so much is basically made out of idiots who can code. They do not have a direction except what code they want to write for the next month.
          My God! People working on technical projects have technical concerns!

          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          Gnome 3 became the shit it was because there was no one leading the programmers. That is the problem, programmers, most of them, aren't visionaries, and don't understand the grandma wanting to use her computer. And they don't care cause they can show of with their hax000r skilzzzz in the terminal and don't understand that most people hate using the damn terminal.
          Actually, Gnome 3 was produced according to a well defined "vision" set out by a professional designer (you know, exactly what you were asking for here).
          http://derstandard.at/1313024283546/...ture-of-GNOME3

          Although, I do personally admit I have no idea why anyone would have that large a revulsion to using the terminal. That said, you have not needed to use it in a long time. Linux administration works great (and for me often better) with the terminal sure, but then when was your grandma expected to do that? The only reason they do not do that on Windows is it comes pre-configured on her computer (or her grandkids do it).

          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          Everyone can contribute? Sure, and it ends up a mess. Direction, that is what Canonical is pushing. And, if executed right, it can finally bring linux to the masses. There is no personality cult unless you consider Bill Gates a personality cult for imposing the direction to Microsoft. Sometimes a good leader can show people the way in a better way than just having a trillion programmers each doing his thing and hoping that everything will end up a good user experience somehow...
          The community is a leader in of itself, and it is what is supposed to provide guidance and "vision" to the people working within it. That is why we have agreed upon standards in the first place that have moderated things and made them work (and that is my main complaint with your argument, your assertion that nothing works). The love of a dictatorial strongman here is more than a little disconcerting.

          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          The freedom of linux is the freedom to be mediocre since that's where it's at right now. Most uncool things that are actually necessary don't get done since programmers only want to work on cool haxo0or kernel low level shit to show off.
          Considering the amount of commercial and government investment in Linux, I would say that plenty of "uncool" things do end up getting done simply because these developer's employers want them. As much as we may all say that anyone can get into Linux (which is still true, with shining examples such as Marek), it actually is mostly dominated by commercial or otherwise paid developers (something I have heard you deny several times) who get paid to work on the hard and gritty stuff that is necessary. You act like Canonical is trying to bring professionalism to Linux, when they are arguably the least professional on the block (which is part of the reason they have such a bad reputation with other vendors).


          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          I was just looking around for a laptop on some online hardware shops and was pleasantly surprised to see quite a few of them that sported Ubuntu as the default instead of Windows. You're considering marketing to be selling snake oil when actually marketing is very good if you want to get your program noticed. Even if all that Canonical does is just marketing, that is good since nobody bothers to promote linux to the end user.
          I am not going to argue the point of the laptops, even though I have only seen them in mostly niche stores with fairly terrible hardware offerings (such places have been selling Linux for a long time now, even before Ubuntu). However, if Canonical's primary focus was to push Linux on hardware I think they would deserve a bit more credit. It actually strikes me as odd that Canonical is trying to be the next Apple and yet is failing to see where they actually make their money from - dedicated Apple hardware.

          I actually think that Canonical should have opened up a hardware business selling specialty high-end Ubuntu powered workstations and laptops, where things would "just work" as they would have full control of the hardware. Just setup a customized LTS release and ship. Instead they try to make all of these deals with other hardware vendors and seem to repeatedly fall flat on their face, as they have considerably less pull than Microsoft on these same hardware vendors.

          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          Compared to windows. Always compared to windows.
          I was also using Windows at the time. Don't make me laugh. If you can arrogantly exert that Linux flat out sucks, I can definatly apply that same moniker to the versions of Windows that were out at the time.

          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          And I do not say that everything was done by Canonical. But they pushed for it even if others were the ones that actually were convinced and did the actual work. Again, vision works. Still Ubuntu remains the easiest distro to get it to work (including Mint which is based on Ubuntu). That in itself says all that you need to know about Shuttleworth. He actually cares about user experience. I don't agree with his Unity interface but people seem to like it. Most aren't power users freaking for more control over their system.
          Red Hat created NetworkManager for it's own purposes, not because they suddenly had this beam of revelation from Saint Shuttlerworth. Lennart Poettering created PulseAudio and systemd for his own purposes, again not because Canoncal made him suddenly realize there was a desktop market. These technical improvements that have deeply impacted desktop users would have come with or without Ubuntu. The notion that Ubuntu is the easiest to setup is still one I may dispute, but my main complaint here is that you are still giving Ubuntu way too much credit for other people's hard work.

          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          I don't agree with his Unity interface but people seem to like it.
          Also, by admitting this are you saying that you are not an end-user, like I apparently am? Because you actually are, and so am I.
          Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 03-14-2013, 12:57 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
            In fact the more I look at online stores in my country (Romania) the more I see that Ubuntu is quite well represented. There are a lot of laptops that come with Ubuntu by default or Windows 8. From well known vendors not no names. I think Canonical's push to default OS for laptops is actually working.

            Windows since windows xp is pretty good. Back in 2001 there was no equivalent to it in the linux world in terms of user experience. Come to think about it, a lot of windows xp features haven't been surpassed even to this day by linux. A great example: games.
            Windows is shit, all versions of it. You would have to pay me serious money to use that ridiculous and sorry example of an OS, made by once the most valued corporation with de facto monopoly - yet uni students and hobbyist bettered it. I can't really say what would be better example of shitty monopolies.
            Last edited by moilami; 03-14-2013, 01:23 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
              Come to think about it, a lot of windows xp features haven't been surpassed even to this day by linux. A great example: games.
              You mean Minesweeper and Solitaire? Or the pinball version that came with some Windows versions? Those games are delivered by default with KDE (I think Gnome has also a number of games, I think).
              All other games are third party software and not a Windows feature.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                In fact the more I look at online stores in my country (Romania) the more I see that Ubuntu is quite well represented. There are a lot of laptops that come with Ubuntu by default or Windows 8. From well known vendors not no names. I think Canonical's push to default OS for laptops is actually working.

                Windows since windows xp is pretty good. Back in 2001 there was no equivalent to it in the linux world in terms of user experience. Come to think about it, a lot of windows xp features haven't been surpassed even to this day by linux. A great example: games.
                Really man, you're just digging yourself a bigger hole. Maybe you should go find different forum? Try to find one with like minded individuals.. You arent going to find many people who agree with you here.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                  In fact the more I look at online stores in my country (Romania) the more I see that Ubuntu is quite well represented. There are a lot of laptops that come with Ubuntu by default or Windows 8. From well known vendors not no names. I think Canonical's push to default OS for laptops is actually working.
                  Not to sound like an anglo-centrist, but this is certainly not the case in North America or in the UK. In most of the western world the only two visible options commercially are Windows in most places and Mac OS X at the Apple stores, and this has not really changed, despite Canonical's deals with vendors like Dell. Only specialty vendors like System76 really make an appearance, and you have to find them first.

                  Not dismissing the changes you may very well be seeing in Romania, but I have been hearing stories about Linux doing well outside of the narrow anglo-sphere I happen to live in for fifteen years, well before Ubuntu showed up. In fact, Linux was more visible in the late nineties here when you could go into a Best Buy and buy a boxed copy of Red Hat Linux. Case in point, when I did my Cisco IT course (which was getting a little old in places) for Linux they showed a box of Red Hat 8. I think we have actually lost some representation in this part of the world when it comes to most stores.

                  Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                  Windows since windows xp is pretty good. Back in 2001 there was no equivalent to it in the linux world in terms of user experience. Come to think about it, a lot of windows xp features haven't been surpassed even to this day by linux. A great example: games.
                  Don't make me laugh, Windows XP was a horrible desktop operating system. It's GUI was far worse than what was offered by Gnome2 or KDE3 in terms of flexibility (seems very much like LXDE today), had a horrible networking stack that made Windows for Workgroups look easy to use in the name of false security benefits that pale to SSH anyway, the horribleness of all the third-party firewall and antivirus stuff that was needed to make it barely safe, and it would always die within six months to a year of active usage. These are all places Linux did better that definitely did affect end users, and not just the technically savvy. Games are an entirely separate issue, and just like your mp3 examples in another thread are based primarily on us being forced to play in a different playing field.
                  Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 03-14-2013, 03:05 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post

                    Don't make me laugh, Windows XP was a horrible desktop operating system. It's GUI was far worse than what was offered by Gnome2 or KDE3 in terms of flexibility (seems very much like LXDE today)
                    Nope, not even that good - LXDE is way more flexible and powerful than windows XP.

                    I can actually compare these quite well, I have this one 10-year old HP laptop with 500MB RAM and (I think 1.7GHz) crappy Celeron singlecore CPU, which has had both. So, the OEM version of XP Pro that came with it ran horribly on it - I couldn't even use the windows version of GIMP because it wouldn't run it well enough, and I couldn't use pretty much any two programs at the same time. Not to mention the weekly antivirus sweeps - oh god, those took aeons. So I installed Lubuntu on it, and it worked much smoother. Boots in seconds instead of minutes. Doesn't hang up or slow to a crawl even when there are multiple windows open.

                    But this was about flexibility - and LXDE beats XP in that regard too. Windows XP doesn't even have custom themes. You can install some 3rd-party themes that may or may not be malware, but other than that you're stuck with the 2 or 3 themes that ship with the OS. LXDE can use all Metacity and GTK2 themes. XP doesn't allow changing the panel widgets, you can switch the panel on any edge of the screen but can't have multiple panels or do anything about the start menu. LXDE allows you to have 1-4 panels in any edge of the screen, and the start menu is just a widget that you can move freely, as is every other widget - you can arrange the panels and widgets in whatever way you choose. LXDE is actually surprisingly flexible for such a lightweight DE.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                      Yes I know. I was too. And it was shit. Ubuntu was clearly the way forward. They did a big push towards usability for the end user. And they still do. But now they have to leave some parts of the community back since they are no longer contributing to the end user but holding them back. So they have to roll on their own. Of course that means taking control of more and more technology from the linux stack. The direction the community is going isn't the one that the end user likes and wants. And Canonical knows it.
                      if you really dont care about respect lisenses and stuff but only "Linux", google is the one that did 1000x more for making linux coming onto the desktop... all this guys who even hate ubuntu and would never touch it, use android handies and most of them dont even know its linux.


                      So if its only the quantity and not the quality that matters, fuck ubuntu they did nothing compared to google.


                      And btw, Canonical can do what they want, but its not nessecary for them to shit on peoples work, insult them, shit them in the face and so on... they just can say hey we are making somthing different than wayland, we think it fits more our goal, we will release that in 6 months or so or in 1-2 years. But their backstab tactic, doing like they like wayland and want to use it, and then out of nothing there is a complete alternative... not even the try to send patches because they dont belive in sending patches...

                      Hopefully the fork soon the kernel, then they fall 100% shure on their nose, will then have security bucks worse than windows...


                      UPDATE:

                      And why was ubuntu a good thing at that times, because they were the only distri that focused on the gnome-desktop and was not like 1000 years old like debian. (yes there is unstable, but even that gets way to old in freeze times).
                      So and now they give away the only reason why ubuntu was good, because the focused on gnome.

                      If Ubuntu would not be there, maybe most of this users maybe with a small delay till novell sold opensuse would be opensuse users, and even with that less users opensuse does a real good job compared to ubuntu. Think what would happend if they would have 10 times the users the last 5 years.

                      Ubuntu also killed much stuff, gentoo is now basicly dead or not in the state it was before ubuntu was out... shure for total noobs that distri was never something but for tech sawy it was. I think ubuntus sucess has something to do with it.
                      And yes sadly fedora is in a bad state. should be the alternative to ubuntu a bit more unstable... but it isnt, its not even in a good desktop state compared to debian, did get yesterday a ssl handshake error in a browser, shure its the unstable tree but such basic stuff has to work.

                      I personaly have to bad experience with the old suse, and have big problems installing such a total-noob distri. Arch is often to stable, AUR is not on the same level than ppas.


                      But most of that is because I am a geek, for the normal noob you talk about... opensuse would be today probably the better solution. Or at least would he have no disadvantage over ubuntu, except if he really likes this buggy beta exclusive software canonical throughs unasked out in the world...
                      Last edited by blackiwid; 03-14-2013, 06:49 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                        If Ubuntu would not be there, maybe most of this users maybe with a small delay till novell sold opensuse would be opensuse users, and even with that less users opensuse does a real good job compared to ubuntu. Think what would happend if they would have 10 times the users the last 5 years.
                        Sold? What? You're confusing something here. OpenSUSE was the idea of Novell themselves - an open development and testing process, managed entirely by the community. And you can't sell a community, now can you?.. So this sentence makes little sense to me.

                        But yes, openSUSE is pretty good as an alternative to Ubuntu. Though I suppose it's not as much friendly to beginners, but it sure works very well for the medium tech savvy people, given the wealth of repositories, YaST and such.

                        And for beginners we have Mageia. Does all of what Ubuntu was mentioned for here - driver detection, easy way to install them, ease of use etc.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                          Sold? What? You're confusing something here. OpenSUSE was the idea of Novell themselves - an open development and testing process, managed entirely by the community. And you can't sell a community, now can you?.. So this sentence makes little sense to me.

                          But yes, openSUSE is pretty good as an alternative to Ubuntu. Though I suppose it's not as much friendly to beginners, but it sure works very well for the medium tech savvy people, given the wealth of repositories, YaST and such.

                          And for beginners we have Mageia. Does all of what Ubuntu was mentioned for here - driver detection, easy way to install them, ease of use etc.
                          you really think, that ubuntu is more focused on total retard windows noobs? I have the feeling that there is no noobisher distri than opensuse. Or does Yast for its shitiness still hinders it to be a distribution for noobs?

                          You have to bring some technical heavy users to a distri + noobs only than it works. We have seen many linuxers before ubuntu that focused only on retards... like easylinux and stuff like that if there are no people in the forums that can answer questions except the developers that create the distribution the distribution dies...

                          So I dont think a distribution for total noobs only can work...

                          ok not easylinux thats only a magazin, but something like Lindows, hah there is also a distribution with that name easylinux ^^
                          Last edited by blackiwid; 03-14-2013, 07:31 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by dee. View Post
                            Nope, not even that good - LXDE is way more flexible and powerful than windows XP. .
                            Well, that was never meant as a slight against LXDE, which is a project I have come to rely more and more for older machines.

                            Originally posted by dee. View Post
                            I can actually compare these quite well, I have this one 10-year old HP laptop with 500MB RAM and (I think 1.7GHz) crappy Celeron singlecore CPU, which has had both. So, the OEM version of XP Pro that came with it ran horribly on it - I couldn't even use the windows version of GIMP because it wouldn't run it well enough, and I couldn't use pretty much any two programs at the same time. Not to mention the weekly antivirus sweeps - oh god, those took aeons. So I installed Lubuntu on it, and it worked much smoother. Boots in seconds instead of minutes. Doesn't hang up or slow to a crawl even when there are multiple windows open.
                            I still have a similar Dell laptop hanging around. Probably going to set it up with Fedora LXDE when I finally get around to getting it's power problems solved.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                              Anyway Windows XP was a real step forward compared to the Windows 9x line and most users perceived it as such.
                              But not all. My uncle for one was dubious of XP for a long while. And I hung out with a lot of Dos gamers, so...

                              Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                              I remember trying a red hat back in 2000 and it was much more terminal based than windows xp (which basically didn't need any). I remember that networking didn't work and back then there was no network manager and had to go with terminal or something like that. The feeling was that the UI was just a thin layer over and for real work you had to go to console. I didn't get that feeling with Win XP. And that has to do with it's success compared to Linux.
                              2000 was before Windows XP was released so the comparison is a bit skewed, but it is true that NetworkManager did not come out of Red Hat until 2004. However, I do not think it was people's conceptions that mattered but what shipped on PCs, which is why I have recognized getting vendors to ship Ubuntu as a potentially promising step, although I have debated it's success thus far.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                                How exactly did Canonical shit on other people's work? That thing with wayland seems more like a communication issue not malevolence. If I say I like Ogre (a renderer) while I also create my own renderer and than decide on using my own instead of Ogre even though Ogre is older and has more lines of code and functionality does that make me a traitor? They didn't contribute anything to wayland, how exactly did you think they were supporting it? They didn't, never did.
                                didnt you read about what they did to the compiz developer, they said they want to use this, he developed half a year, now he deletes his work and stopps developing for now... if thats not shiting on somebody what then?

                                Same with wayland, first they cant wait nearly early enough to include it to ubuntu and then they lie about wayland maybe just because this devs are stupid but, they even did say that they have no idea about it, and still stating some stuff they dont have even the abilities to understand it seems.

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