Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

GNOME Will Move Full-Speed With Wayland Support

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
    well to be honest is not a mentality is a very valid technical reason since 99%[to not say all] commercial drivers are huge undebuggable messes that are pretty nasty to work with that include a bazillion dirty hacks and a bazillion security issues that cannot be fixed unless the manufacturer consider it worth it[in most cases they don't give a rat ass since those fixes don't give them more FPS] that forcibly remove your right to use your hardware at your will[remove a driver so you are forced to buy a new one for example].

    so this is more a plea saying "dudes the hardware and the inside silicon is yours, so please give out documentation so we can implement proper native secure drivers"[gallium is a very nice technology is just getting slower due to lack of man power].

    so the point is to use a huge insecure blackbox driver i'll use windows that is equally insecure and blackboxed instead

    P.S nobody[with 2 neurons working and literate in GPU coding] is aking manufacturer to opensource those huge ugly blobs, the community only ask for low level ASM documentation which in no way can affect their silicon secrets[UVD and Pureview are hold for a different reason tho <--MPAA mafia]
    Why even entertain the idea that a handful of volunteers is going to scour through some documentation and come up with a driver better than what the engineers who work with the very designers of the hardware can do? If one is aiming for mediocrity then yeah, there's no compelling reason to work hand-in-hand with the vendors to get a smooth user experience. But for a distro looking to move beyond the 1%, mediocrity isn't going to cut it.

    Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    Yeah, me liking to use a driver that properly integrates with my system makes me a l33t arrogant prick...
    "Properly integrates with my system" sounds like a failure of the system. It's amazing how all those ARM SoC vendors got their drivers to integrate so well with Android. Then again Google was actually focused on marketshare rather than pleasing "the community".

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
      Riiiight... Cause everybody has to wait for wayland to get ready. No. This attitude against Canonical is just people being envious of a rich guy who can do what he wants. If some nobody create Mir nobody would have complained. But since it's Canonical it has to be evil. I am truly curious if Ubuntu gets 90% of market share and kicks Windows out, will they still have the same attitude that Canonical is trying to kill Linux? Gnome and KDE not supporting Mir is just because they are assholes and try to pull Canonical down to limit their potential success. They see someone more successful than them and try to pull him down. But I still think that if Ubuntu gets more successful these idiots will eat their words and make it work with Ubuntu while grinning their teeth.... or crying.

      Desktop linux needs a leader. Shuttleworth has asserted himself as the de factor desktop linux leader. Get used to it! For too many years linux had no direction and never stood a change against Windows. Now it does and you try to stop it?
      Where is the ROFL smile? I freaking loled. They started working on their own calculator and something else. Yeah gooo canonical u will conquer the world!!!! L O L. Seriously douchebag, how can something that is not even ready for use can change linux desktop? And i have to remind u that people u call assholes behind kde/gnome is what make linux desktop. Shuttleworth is clown.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by phoen1x View Post
        Where is the ROFL smile? I freaking loled. They started working on their own calculator and something else. Yeah gooo canonical u will conquer the world!!!! L O L. Seriously douchebag, how can something that is not even ready for use can change linux desktop? And i have to remind u that people u call assholes behind kde/gnome is what make linux desktop. Shuttleworth is clown.
        If in the long term Canonical can somehow completely de-gnomeify their distro we'd all be a lot better off for it.

        Shuttleworth may be a clown but he's only half as insane as the GNOME folks have become.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by johnc View Post
          If in the long term Canonical can somehow completely de-gnomeify their distro we'd all be a lot better off for it.

          Shuttleworth may be a clown but he's only half as insane as the GNOME folks have become.
          Gnome is not just gnome-shell for christ sake.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by phoen1x View Post
            Gnome is not just gnome-shell for christ sake.
            Of course. It includes all the other apps they're removing features from because they're "too difficult" or "not touch friendly".

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
              Riiiight... Cause everybody has to wait for wayland to get ready. No. This attitude against Canonical is just people being envious of a rich guy who can do what he wants. If some nobody create Mir nobody would have complained. But since it's Canonical it has to be evil. I am truly curious if Ubuntu gets 90% of market share and kicks Windows out, will they still have the same attitude that Canonical is trying to kill Linux? Gnome and KDE not supporting Mir is just because they are assholes and try to pull Canonical down to limit their potential success. They see someone more successful than them and try to pull him down. But I still think that if Ubuntu gets more successful these idiots will eat their words and make it work with Ubuntu while grinning their teeth.... or crying.

              Desktop linux needs a leader. Shuttleworth has asserted himself as the de factor desktop linux leader. Get used to it! For too many years linux had no direction and never stood a change against Windows. Now it does and you try to stop it?
              You completely missed my point. If Mir had never been born, you would not be in the position of evaluating using Ubuntu 12.04 for a long time due to the divided DS support of major Linux vendors. Or did you think, like Canonical must have, that Mir (being much farther behind and offering no significant technical or design advantage) would completely kill the development and adoption of Wayland? The position your in now is the fault of Canonicals choice in Mir, not the rest of the communities choice in going forward with the superior and desktop-agnostic option.

              Also, I don't hate Canonical and never have, nor do my complaints about Canonicals choice in creating Mir have anything to do with Canonical or Shuttleworth being the "big kids on the block" (it's only people like you who claim that in attempt to belittle my true arguments... granted, there are many here who are overly zealous in attacking Canonical, so your assumptions are forgivable).

              Moreover, who says Desktop Linux needs "a leader"? Obviously every industry will have it's leaders, but those should be emergent, not appointed. Maybe that's what you meant, but it was a bit unclear. Either way, even the "leaders" should be called on their bullshit when they do something stupid, and it seems the only people who are defending Canonical's obviously bad choices here are those with a "might makes right" attitude.
              Last edited by F i L; 03-13-2013, 02:33 PM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                fix me if am wrong
                - i think multigpu is actually here partially, since KMS/drm recognize my 4850X2 as 2 separeted 4850 that can be enable at the same time[with 2 sxerver], in wayland should be pretty fast to support just matching the visuals to number N gpu and since prime exist at KMS/DRM level too, it should be quite straightforward to share buffers to allow move thing from gpu N to gpu N+1, i agree crossfire/SLI seem huge work for FOSS stack not sure if blobs will do it internally so its transparent for wayland
                - hybrid see below
                - i think i read in mailinglist or phoronix that it exist and is in revision[wlrandr]
                - im not sure here but KMS/DRM seems quite smart handling outputs since i have in 4850x2 4 dvi outputs in which 2 are actual DVI monitors 1 is an hdmi/dvi converter for my hdtv and the last is an old RGB/DVI converted and all my monitors are detected properly and initialized at boot with its proper modesettings, so it shouldnt be quite trivial to assign specific visual an specific output? so compositors just have to ask wayland, hey give me the active outputs and a list of active GPU's!!! and the compositor let me choose later how i want it to work? ofc keeping a safe default like only 1st output is active or all outputs are clones until you specify it otherwise
                Yes, support is there on the KMS side, and the wayland side it not insurmountable, but it still needs to be done. The functionality is there from a kernel perspective (the open source X drivers use KMS as well), but there's still a fair amount of work to deal with it properly in wayland. You'd need to deal with things like differing GL capabilities across different cards, etc. Probably the easiest method to deal with multi-gpu is to decouple display and rendering. That way you can have a consistent set of rendering capabilities for all displays. E.g., you pick one GPU to render and then the relevant data is copied to the appropriate GPU(s) for display. To do this optimally you also need some sort of generic fencing mechanism in the kernel. Maarten Lankhorst was working on this at one point.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by johnc View Post
                  If in the long term Canonical can somehow completely de-gnomeify their distro we'd all be a lot better off for it.

                  Shuttleworth may be a clown but he's only half as insane as the GNOME folks have become.
                  Not only you, but here are many murrons, who make their reality a special one and dream it, and tell people what they are dreaming or something.
                  It was said, that wayland is done... of course there will come newer versions endlessly thats a normal thing for opensource even for closed source software.

                  So to what you said, about we all would be better off when canonical will now get rid of gnome (that could also be happen without a wayland fork btw), the only one who maybe thinks, that he is better off or feels subjectivily better of, would be you. WE just uninstall ubuntu while this happens, and install gnome in another distribution. So WE are not "better off".

                  But I think its good what happens, because the fronts are clearer now, we have Nvidia/Linux (Ubuntu) closedsource thing, and we have more free software focused distributions, that give excellent opensource grafik-driver + opensource software support and if you want to install drm (steam) and stuff you get the minimal-opensource-standard-os ubuntu, if you use something else you will maybe also have some kind of grey free software experience, but it gets more seperated.

                  Thats good so it will be harder for that closedsource Anti-Feature Fraction to use gpl software to sell their anti-features.

                  So at least they have to port themself all the stuff, and there will no support hopefully or way less, the patchset for them gets bigger and bigger, and then they maybe see that you cant as 1-2 companies compete with the opensource community.

                  And dont bring the example Android 1. they have their own 100 trillion pre-installed hardware base that is the reason why they had so much success, but even with that, you cant compare that 99% crap-apps with spyware included in their shop with the applications in Linux. the feature-set is 1/1000 of that what a real linux can deliver... So if you are not to lazy and its possible most users who knows a GNU/Linux and a Android and there are no driver issues 99% of the users would install GNU/Linux as replacement as example for tv-android or tablet or something like that....
                  Last edited by blackiwid; 03-13-2013, 03:02 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                    you are so uninformed that make me feel sad.

                    wayland is ready as spec from quite some time, we are waiting for toolkits and DE enviroments[Qt 5.1 and GTK3] and ofc Apps after that and Mir will face the same if ever gets ready.As a note GTK3 and Qt had been porting from quite some time to wayland too and mir have nothing to do with it, DE devs just said publicly they will not support Mir upstream[for a while at least] and they will support Wayland instead and in the case of this thread[beyond the flashy title] are announcing they consider is good enough the current state of the ports to start pushing a full port at max speed.

                    please literate yourself before post in a flashy title article so you avoid make yourself look like a 15 years old idiot kid
                    Oh really ?!? How about minimize and maximize ?!? Unless, some last day patch solved the problem, is not *fully* working , AFAIK.

                    If it's not fully working a simple thing as minimize and maximize (and if it's *WAITING* for toolkits and DEs) , is not fully working, YMMV.

                    Specs mean squat for end users till they are fully implemented, YMMV.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by AJSB View Post
                      Oh really ?!? How about minimize and maximize ?!? Unless, some last day patch solved the problem, is not *fully* working , AFAIK.

                      If it's not fully working a simple thing as minimize and maximize (and if it's *WAITING* for toolkits and DEs) , is not fully working, YMMV.

                      Specs mean squat for end users till they are fully implemented, YMMV.
                      Gnome is not ready its not ported, if you make gtk and nobody did make a programm with it, gtk is still done, you do not get modularisation or you think that wayland is gnome or something, read the article again, nobody says there, that they want to implement wayland or complete the wayland implementation, they want to make a gnome-port ready...

                      So you trying to make a point where no point is to make a point.

                      And if maximizing and minimizing in WESTON is not possible a example implementation of a DE or something like that, than is the Sample app not targeted for production systems, that again does say nothing about wayland.

                      Its like when you find a bug in kde, and then you say the X-Server is buggy. thats just unlogical and wrong!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by AJSB View Post
                        Oh really ?!? How about minimize and maximize ?!? Unless, some last day patch solved the problem, is not *fully* working , AFAIK.

                        If it's not fully working a simple thing as minimize and maximize (and if it's *WAITING* for toolkits and DEs) , is not fully working, YMMV.

                        Specs mean squat for end users till they are fully implemented, YMMV.
                        i got enough of explain the infamous minimize situation to every iliterate that take it as flag to defend any crazy notion it has on wayland, so look in forum i explained enough.

                        wayland and mir require a massive rework of many massive projects and both will take time to be fully implemented[mir or not is still 2 or 3 years either one you choose] but well i guess since you most likely has never written any serious code you will response another dude nonsense

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by johnc View Post
                          Why even entertain the idea that a handful of volunteers is going to scour through some documentation and come up with a driver better than what the engineers who work with the very designers of the hardware can do? If one is aiming for mediocrity then yeah, there's no compelling reason to work hand-in-hand with the vendors to get a smooth user experience. But for a distro looking to move beyond the 1%, mediocrity isn't going to cut it.
                          "Properly integrates with my system" sounds like a failure of the system. It's amazing how all those ARM SoC vendors got their drivers to integrate so well with Android. Then again Google was actually focused on marketshare rather than pleasing "the community".
                          well another "dude i wanna play crysis so i don't care how" response and as follower in G+ of many Google android developers i can only laugh at your ignorance until i cannot cry anymore.

                          please restraint to post when the subject is outside of your scope of understanding [if the android/arm driver was meant as a joke, you will make many devs laugh their hearts out in the next Google I/O]

                          I make a motion to bring Q back, this new generation of VisualBasic for Dummies trolls are boring

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by agd5f View Post
                            Yes, support is there on the KMS side, and the wayland side it not insurmountable, but it still needs to be done. The functionality is there from a kernel perspective (the open source X drivers use KMS as well), but there's still a fair amount of work to deal with it properly in wayland. You'd need to deal with things like differing GL capabilities across different cards, etc. Probably the easiest method to deal with multi-gpu is to decouple display and rendering. That way you can have a consistent set of rendering capabilities for all displays. E.g., you pick one GPU to render and then the relevant data is copied to the appropriate GPU(s) for display. To do this optimally you also need some sort of generic fencing mechanism in the kernel. Maarten Lankhorst was working on this at one point.
                            yeap i missed the GPU fencing part but i think would be only neccesary for complex Gl apps since the compositor should be able to determine the profile in each gpu and set the preferred codepath in runtime or simply use a low level common code path like GLES 2 which i far as i understand is supported in every gallium driver[opposed to 3.0 which is only on intel/r600g drivers]

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by johnc View Post
                              And hence why Fedora isn't a distro for most end-users.

                              Not to pick on them alone, because frankly this "who gives a f about proprietary drivers" mentality seems to be widely held by "the community" and it's evident in the end product. And that's precisely why the stuff put out by "the community" is wholly inadequate for your typical user... and thus why we need a distro backed by a company that understands the needs of most users and not just l33t arrogant pricks.
                              Arrogant enough to expose proprietary drivers flaws like 4kstacks, remember? Avoiding proprietary stuff taking hostage the entire FOSS development is much sane approach. Luckily for those proprietary company, software patents
                              protect their secrets until someone will expose them without even spying them. You are fully aware movies and animations industry increasingly use FOSS tools so companies like Nvidia cannot afford to lose their big customers.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                                well another "dude i wanna play crysis so i don't care how" response and as follower in G+ of many Google android developers i can only laugh at your ignorance until i cannot cry anymore.

                                please restraint to post when the subject is outside of your scope of understanding [if the android/arm driver was meant as a joke, you will make many devs laugh their hearts out in the next Google I/O]

                                I make a motion to bring Q back, this new generation of VisualBasic for Dummies trolls are boring
                                If your Android phone doesn't "just work", then sorry 'bout your luck.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X