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Upstream X/Wayland Developers Bash Canonical, Mir

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  • Originally posted by garegin View Post
    I have a feeling that desktop Linux will be slowly dying. The main DEs are severely understaffed. Without quality gnome or kde releases desktop Linux will only be used by fans only. And don't say that xfce or lxde is great, because it isnt
    I disagree. The Linux desktop is and always has been used by fans only. Canonical is dying, having shot itself in the foot, the groin, and the heart. (So long, Unity.) The Gnome Shell (but not core libraries) folks have painted themselves into a lonely corner of irrelevance. (Hello, Mate & Cinnamon!) But none of this is anything new. Remember the XFree86 "crisis"? Entities in OSS make a name for themselves, get fat heads, and self-destruct. Always have, always will.

    Shuttleworth is just the latest casualty of success. And when his (doomed) play for a piece of the phone market fails, he's going to cut Canonical loose. The Amazon adware/spyware and Canonical's plea for donations makes it pretty clear that Shuttleworth is near the end of his patience. I do miss the old Ubuntu. But I won't miss the atrocity that calls itself by that name today. Good riddance.

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    • Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
      It would be nice if Mir deserved to be treated in the same way. It isn't going to be treated that way just by default though, it is the Mir developers' responsibility to show that they have a good product. They haven't done this yet, quite the opposite. They have managed to convince people they haven't even done their basic research yet.
      I was referring to the lack of "bashing" when I said "way". The idea that they need to convince people that they should treat others kindly is absurd.

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      • Originally posted by Ibidem View Post
        My favorite line in the whole thing...
        (upstart came first, Red Hat adopted it, then systemd came along claiming that there were technical issues with upstart. So this is almost an exact mirror, with the shoe on the other foot.)

        For the anti-BSD trolls:
        This is the first display server I know of to be licensed as (L)GPL3. I doubt it will be popular anywhere outside Linux (there, did I irritate anyone yet?) and Hurd.


        ...Meanwhile, I'm sticking with X11, and sysvinit (well, and bb init!).
        Used FreeBSD quite a bit in the early part of 2000 - 2002 and it was real nice NVidia drivers ran on it.

        Linux distro's will probably go whole heartedly into Wayland. Remonescent of how Xfree86 got sidelined.

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        • Originally posted by ryao View Post
          I was referring to the lack of "bashing" when I said "way". The idea that they need to convince people that they should treat others kindly is absurd.
          First, my point still stands. If Mir ends up being a bad solution, then people have every right to say so. If they feel Mir will hurt the Linux community, they have every right to voice their opinions. If Mir does not seem to be on track to accomplish its goals, it is perfectly acceptable for people to point that out

          You have no criticism at all for the Mir devs who opened up, right off the bad, with bashing wayland. This is despite the fact that every single one of their complaints was flat-out wrong and ignorant. But when wayland dares to fire back with criticisms of their criticisms, skepticism of them actually being able to pull of what they claim, and criticism of what they feel will be a negative effect on the Linux ecosystem...oh, it's so terrible, bashing should never happen, why can't we all just get along, the wayland devs should treat the mir devs with kindness. Not a word about the mir devs treating the watland devs the same.

          If mir devs didn't want to get in a fight with wayland devs, they shouldn't have picked a fight with them in the first place. You can't go around bashing other development projects then get all offended when they dare to respond to your bashing.
          Last edited by TheBlackCat; 03-08-2013, 02:55 AM.

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          • Wayland supports some, but not all, present day Android GPU chipsets.

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            • Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
              By the way, Ubuntu officially package Gambas3 yet (sorry, just took a little frustrated jab)
              http://packages.ubuntu.com/gambas3

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              • Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                <...>If mir devs didn't want to get in a fight with wayland devs, they shouldn't have picked a fight with them in the first place.
                i remember the "Mir Spec" page reading "why didnt we consider wayland? because <....> not meet our requirements" - which hardly sounds like picking a fight to me
                instead it sounds like a perfectly good (at least civil) rationale for explaining their decision (apart from the fact that they weren't even obliged to write such a "disclaimer" - which may even make it a sign of goodwill on their part)
                but those who called developers names for "not having done research", aren't picking up a fight are they?

                the mir spec page may contain inaccuracies (like that wayland's input model is similar to that of X), yes
                but are you seriously blaming them, with wayland's freedesktop.org website (the official and only credited source *) describing wayland's revolutionary approach (that of merging the display server and the compositor while generating surfaces client side, oh wow) and very little else?
                with the need to dwelve in the wayland-devel mailing list for the implementation details and design processes?
                with the need, if you're new, to read 4+ years worth of it to reconstruct its evolution from a simple redraw loop to its current state (which even now has things to settle)?
                with Xinput2 actually mentioned somewhere as a weston dependency IIRC, because "lets reuse what works"?

                * or are you telling one should really dwelve in 4+ years of stuff, scattered among mailing list, phoronix articles, obscure external blogs, to cobble together knowledge about the project named after Aliens' megacorp? seriously?
                that's not how a professional would work, for a professional developer only official reference material (possibly books) counts, the rest is fluff
                You can't go around bashing other development projects then get all offended when they dare to respond to your bashing.
                looks like my definition of bashing and your definition of bashing are quite divergent...
                also, consider that there is a thing called ovverreaction - which sometimes may trigger escalation, but usually leaves the one who overreacts less worthy of respect and consideration afterwards, when things have calmed down again...

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                • Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                  If mir devs didn't want to get in a fight with wayland devs, they shouldn't have picked a fight with them in the first place.
                  i remember the "Mir Spec" page reading "why didnt we consider wayland? because <....> not meet our requirements"
                  which hardly sounds like picking a fight to me... instead it sounds like a perfectly good (at least civil) rationale for explaining their decision
                  disregarding the fact that they weren't even obliged to write such a "disclaimer" in the first place, so it may even be considered a sign of good will on their part
                  but those who called developers names for "not having done research", aren't picking up a fight, are they?

                  now, the mir spec page may contain inaccuracies (like that wayland's input model is similar to that of X), yes
                  but are you seriously blaming them, with wayland's freedesktop.org website (the official and only credited source *) describing wayland's revolutionary (in world encumbered by 30 years of X, for sure) approach (of merging the display server and the compositor while generating surfaces client side, oh wow) and very little else?
                  with the need to dwelve in the wayland-devel mailing list for implementation details and design processes (if we call debates about this or that function, as such)?
                  with the need, if you're new, to read 4+ years worth of it to reconstruct its evolution from a simple redraw loop to its current state (with things to settle and standardise even now)?
                  with Xinput2 IIRC actually mentioned somewhere as a weston dependency, because "lets reuse what works"?

                  * or are you telling one should really dwelve in 4+ years of stuff, scattered among mailing list, phoronix articles, obscure external blogs, to cobble together knowledge about the project named after Aliens' megacorp? seriously?
                  that's not how a professional would work, for a professional developer only official reference material (possibly books) counts, the rest is fluff

                  You can't go around bashing other development projects then get all offended when they dare to respond to your bashing.
                  looks like my definition of bashing and your definition of bashing are quite divergent
                  also consider that there is a thing called ovverreaction - which sometimes may trigger escalation, but usually leaves the one who overreacts less worthy of respect and consideration afterwards, when things have calmed down again...
                  Last edited by silix; 03-09-2013, 10:30 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by JanC View Post
                    Ancient as hell...

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                    • Originally posted by silix View Post
                      Snip
                      I think the idea is they could, as an interested vendor, have asked the Wayland developers for that information (not having to go trawling though old posts). And it was more than just a few inaccuracies, but damn right lies on that page. Whether or they were intentional I do not know, but it is more than enough to justify getting your hackles up.

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                      • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                        Ryao, what happened to eudev?
                        Look at systemd 197 changelog under contributions.

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                        • Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                          And gnome developers don't suffer from the NIH syndrome? Unity for example, was available before gnome shell.
                          Um, no. You have that backwards.

                          First commit to gnome-shell repository: 2008-10-31 04:22:44 UTC

                          First commit to Unity repository: 2009-10-15 10:40:35 UTC

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