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Upstream X/Wayland Developers Bash Canonical, Mir

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  • #31
    Originally posted by squirrl View Post
    RedHat Guts Gnome and nobody cares
    RedHat Guts X and nobody cares
    RedHat Guts Linux and nobody cared
    In a word: Horseshit.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RAOF
      Heh. It's our turn to pull a systemd!
      My favorite line in the whole thing...
      (upstart came first, Red Hat adopted it, then systemd came along claiming that there were technical issues with upstart. So this is almost an exact mirror, with the shoe on the other foot.)

      For the anti-BSD trolls:
      This is the first display server I know of to be licensed as (L)GPL3. I doubt it will be popular anywhere outside Linux (there, did I irritate anyone yet?) and Hurd.


      ...Meanwhile, I'm sticking with X11, and sysvinit (well, and bb init!).

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      • #33
        Originally posted by grotgrot View Post
        It has been a while since I tried Fedora, but the general vibes I get are very short support cycles and that if you have a problem and Google it you will be less likely to find an answer than if you had the same problem on Ubuntu. The equivalents to PPAs also seem less plentiful/popular. I also hated using Fedora as a developer because it was secure - things wouldn't work and I'd have to track error messages and magic incantations to let me do whatever I wanted. As for the others, my concern is things like installing Chrome, Virtualbox, Steam and similar software which all choose only a subset of Linux distros to mention and is an issue for new users.
        You do know about RPM Fusion, right?

        As for the secure thing, you can turn off SELinux if you prefer (I am assuming that is what you are referring to). Now, this may be more than a new user wants, but then I never said it was necessarily the best for new users, just that it's "issues" are severally overstated.

        When it comes to support, I just ended up at the Arch Wiki anyway. That is why I am on Arch now.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Ibidem View Post
          (upstart came first, Red Hat adopted it, then systemd came along claiming that there were technical issues with upstart. So this is almost an exact mirror, with the shoe on the other foot.)
          I will admit to some ignorance on this, but did Upstart's technical issues actually exist? Because in this case it seems that Canonical was just spreading FUD.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by squirrl View Post
            RedHat Guts X and nobody cares
            Red Hat have been the primary driving force behind X for a very long time. If it weren't for them, X would've died at least a couple of years back.

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            • #36
              Red Hat is the primary force behind most linux technologies/infrastructures. Without them the desktop would have been painfully unusable. I really hope they can bolster the gnome project though. I would have donated to them, but I don't want my money to be wasted by some freetard hacker who doesn't know a thing about user interface design. Maybe I'll donate to the gparted project. They seem to be serving a very focused, pragmatic purpose.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Ibidem View Post
                My favorite line in the whole thing...
                (upstart came first, Red Hat adopted it, then systemd came along claiming that there were technical issues with upstart. So this is almost an exact mirror, with the shoe on the other foot.)
                Technical AND license issues. Upstart is dual license due to Canonicals contributor license.
                http://www.canonical.com/contributors

                So systemd is about breaking down walled gardens. Mir is about building walled gardens.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                  You do know about RPM Fusion, right?
                  I didn't, but browsing through doesn't seem to show that many packages. It looks like Debian (and hence Ubuntu) has about double the number of packages as standard. Ubuntu's PPAs fill in any missing gaps very well. The Fedora package list is definitely more complete than when I've looked in the past.

                  Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                  As for the secure thing, you can turn off SELinux if you prefer (I am assuming that is what you are referring to).
                  I was developing an Apache module, along with other software. It wouldn't work with no apparent explanation as to why. Eventually I'd find a clue, address it and try again. This would happen several times. I didn't want to disable selinux since then everyone I gave the module to would also have to do so, which is clearly the wrong thing. The issue wasn't the existence of selinux, but rather that diagnosing something you wanted to happen and didn't was extremely tedious.

                  Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                  When it comes to support, I just ended up at the Arch Wiki anyway. That is why I am on Arch now.
                  The installation docs are astonishingly bad (this page) especially compared to the Gentoo ones, or the convenience of a gui/auto-detection. Of course installs are so rare that it doesn't matter for most people. I am seeing the Arch wiki showing up in searches a lot more, like Gentoo used to (eg the arch page for btrfs is my 4th result for that term). Part of my problem is that the arch netboot kernel hangs in VirtualBox during boot most of the time.

                  On Ubuntu I use these instructions to get rid of all the Ubuntu specific stuff and get a more genuine Gnome experience. If that approach doesn't work in 13.04 then I will definitely quite Ubuntu, almost certainly for Arch. The only remaining problem is why to recommend to new users since I still don't have a better answer than Ubuntu.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                    I will admit to some ignorance on this, but did Upstart's technical issues actually exist? Because in this case it seems that Canonical was just spreading FUD.
                    Yes actually there were legitimate technical problems with upstart, check the various wikis for a description. What it basically comes down to is...upstart pushed the hardwork to the app developers, systemd kept the hardwork to themselves so that everyone could benefit simultaneously.

                    As far THESE technical problems... So far, Krh, David Airlie and Daniel Stone have all come back with: "FUD until proven otherwise."

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by numasan View Post
                      Huh? What is happening to Ubuntu? Personally lost interest in it years ago, but still glad it promotes Linux (on the desktop), but now? This is the end, in a few years it'll be the bastard child of Linux, and then into oblivion like all the rest of once popular desktop distros... Google can pull stuff like this off with Android, because they are freaking Google, but Mr. Shuttleworth must be delusional if he thinks Canonical can do the same. Until then all they do is damage the ecosystem. Shame...
                      Nothing to surprise.
                      I've found Canonical is just an Apple-wannabe for a while.

                      But it will never become another Apple because it has never invested as many human resources as Apple had.
                      To get a better UI, Apple replaced X server many years ago. But what about Canonical? It just adopted compiz to attract users with the fancy but useless graphics.
                      Last edited by zxy_thf; 03-05-2013, 01:33 AM. Reason: typo fix

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by zxy_thf View Post
                        Nothing to surprise.
                        I've found Canonical is just an Apple-wannabe for a while.

                        But it will never become another Apple because it has never invested as many human resources as Apple had.
                        To get a better UI, Apple replaced X server many years ago. But what about Canonical? It just adopted compiz to attract users with the fancy but useless graphics.
                        Now they are gonna change that, and you're still not happy

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by grotgrot View Post
                          (I do agree with your sentiment - gratuitous differences, not being a member of the community, NIH, CLA etc really are making Ubuntu undesirable.)

                          Out of curiosity what distributions do you push people to? As far as I can tell Ubuntu is the least worst along various dimensions such as freshness (new package versions but not too bleeding edge), not requiring assembly (arch, gentoo), support (instructions and packages almost always exist), release cycles (fedora seems to have issues) and ability for anyone from beginners to the experienced to get going.
                          Depends on the person. I usually, direct them the second newest Fedora KDE version (that way it's stable and not so bleeding edge anymore). Since they're usually friends or family, I can fill in all of the "not Ubuntu" gaps myself in the beginning with RPMfusion and what not. I also get them all the software they'll need and briefly customize it to their preferences. None of them are advanced enough to mess with 3rd party repos so it's not a big deal if Fedora doesn't have a large repo ecosystem.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by zxy_thf View Post
                            To get a better UI, Apple replaced X server many years ago.
                            Apple didn't "replace" X. They never used it to start with.

                            They had their PostScript compositor in OS X 10.0, and in OS 9 and earlier they used a custom kernel windowing system, like older Windows (modern Windows offloads some work to the userspace dwm.exe; most of the windowing system, like input and so on, are still in the kernel).

                            No version of X can run natively on any version of upstream Mac OS except as a proxy to the native windowing system.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by mark45 View Post
                              The main point is Canonical didn't complain at all about Wayland, didn't contribute, didn't ask questions, didn't propose solutions, didn't object to anything, just sat there quiet and then bang - they say Wayland sucks and they "have" to use their own solution. Anyone non-brain damaged knows it's not about Wayland, it's about the NIH syndrome, and more importantly, the fact that Canonical can't control it.
                              And gnome developers don't suffer from the NIH syndrome? Unity for example, was available before gnome shell.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by grotgrot View Post
                                On Ubuntu I use these instructions to get rid of all the Ubuntu specific stuff and get a more genuine Gnome experience. If that approach doesn't work in 13.04 then I will definitely quite Ubuntu, almost certainly for Arch. The only remaining problem is why to recommend to new users since I still don't have a better answer than Ubuntu.
                                I'd recommend Mint, it's just as easy to install as Ubuntu and has far less problems.

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