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  • #31
    Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
    Yeah so it brings nothing new for the user, only for devs, and the first users who will try it will get burned because it's buggy and incomplete and they'll tell everybody else that it sucks so that everybody else shouldn't try it and Wayland will wither away and die a well deserved death because it brings nothing to the table. All hail Xorg!!! See this is why Xorg will remain king. It already works well enough for the users. Users don't care about developers so they have no reason to switch!
    Totally agree, tear free video, flicker free and tear free desktop among various other things are totally irrelevant for users, only for developers .. (<-- sarcasm/irony)

    If you indeed took the time to learn more about Wayland and still believe this .. Whatever ..
    Yes likely Wayland, like everything new will have some bugs. That's why I can't wait for it to come out so we can get rid of them faster
    And do you know what X was originally designed for? You certainly want something not designed for GUIs to handle your 3d graphics, applications, desktop and everything related?
    From my understanding X has by default architectural flaws when you take into account what it is used for now(not the fault of X devs, it was just not started for what it ended up being, or ended up being for some). Fixing various issues it has would bring us "a Wayland" anyways .. And at least some of the guys working on Wayland have some experience in X so I believe we can trust them
    If I am wrong in any of the above, someone please correct me.

    So I guess in the end, for some people any kind o change is awful .. With that attitude we should still have no screens at all and insert commands in computers using cards that have holes on them to indicate ones and zeros. Or better yet, have to rearrange transistors to get our desired "application".

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    • #32
      Originally posted by asdx
      Fuck off, dumb asshole.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
        Totally agree, tear free video, flicker free and tear free desktop among various other things are totally irrelevant for users, only for developers .. (<-- sarcasm/irony)

        If you indeed took the time to learn more about Wayland and still believe this .. Whatever ..
        Yes likely Wayland, like everything new will have some bugs. That's why I can't wait for it to come out so we can get rid of them faster
        And do you know what X was originally designed for? You certainly want something not designed for GUIs to handle your 3d graphics, applications, desktop and everything related?
        From my understanding X has by default architectural flaws when you take into account what it is used for now(not the fault of X devs, it was just not started for what it ended up being, or ended up being for some). Fixing various issues it has would bring us "a Wayland" anyways .. And at least some of the guys working on Wayland have some experience in X so I believe we can trust them
        If I am wrong in any of the above, someone please correct me.

        So I guess in the end, for some people any kind o change is awful .. With that attitude we should still have no screens at all and insert commands in computers using cards that have holes on them to indicate ones and zeros. Or better yet, have to rearrange transistors to get our desired "application".
        You must be new here. He's a well known negativity-troll.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
          You must be new here. He's a well known negativity-troll.
          Ok, I'll keep it in mind, thanks for the heads up.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Teho View Post
            I have flicker at boot up, tearing when watching videos, lag with animations, breakage when resizing windows, bad performance under compositing... X.org doesn't work.
            Half of those things aren't X's faults. It's quite unfair to blame it for problems in something else.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
              The thing is if wayland is better for developers then that means that people creating applications will have easier time which might translate to better applications for users. So in the end wayland might be better for users. But, and this is a recurring problem in linux, it will be released in an unfinished state and early users will say it sucks and then no one will test future (better) versions. This is why wayland will die. If they want any kind of success then they must keep it out of the public's eye for the next 3-4 years, test it thouroughly, and then switch to wayland without causing absolutely any change in the user workflow. So since it doesn't have any obvious advantages to the user in it's initial state, users won't put up with the bugs that it will surely have and will leave to go back to Xorg. So it won't get thouroughly tested and it will never have a large userbase. This is the big problem with your beloved wayland. No one will want to use it.

              But then of course probably Ubuntu will have us dragged kicking and screaming to use it as we had unnecessary changes forced upon us before.
              Yeah, Wayland will die like that. Just like KDE4 did.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by curaga View Post
                Half of those things aren't X's faults. It's quite unfair to blame it for problems in something else.
                All of them are either party or completely due to deficienies in X.org; not that I know much about the technical details. With Wayland it's possible to sync animation perfectly to the monitor refresh rate leading to fluent animation. Compositing under Wayland causes almost no overhead unlike X.org where it's very noticeable. Tearing and resizing are something that are solved due to its architecture. Flickering can be solved by starting small system compositor very early in the boot; X.org flickers even after it's loaded in the boot process.

                Originally posted by BO$$
                it will be released in an unfinished state and early users will say it sucks and then no one will test future (better) versions.
                Could you list some projects like that? PulseAudio probably got it harder than anything but it's doing extremely fine. Wayland is one of the most awaited projects in open source landscape. I haven't heard anyone whine more about it than you and I doubt that will change even when it's going to be put in use.

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                • #38
                  Maybe my recollection of the timeline is wrong, but here's what I remember...

                  1. Many complaints about X being too big, too old, trying to do too much, forcing a wire protocol on everyone when 99% of the users were running apps only on a local PC. Wistful thinking about a nice, lightweight display environment like the one on OSX with an efficient compositor, a window manager, and not much else.

                  2. Kristian started working on Wayland while at Red Hat. Per Wikipedia :

                  His stated goal was a system in which "every frame is perfect, by which I mean that applications will be able to control the rendering enough that we'll never see tearing, lag, redrawing or flicker.
                  Many complaints about "why do we need something new" and "this is just a Red Hat project"

                  3. Kristian moves to Intel. Work continues on Wayland and gathers momentum. Many complaints about "why do we need something new" and "this is just an Intel project".

                  It's possible that the people complaining in (1) are a different set from the people complaining in (2) and (3), of course.

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                  • #39
                    People will never be happy .. Even if Wayland has 0 bugs. People can't survive on pure happiness anyway, they'll find something to be displeased about .. Or kill themselves .. :|


                    Originally posted by Ancurio View Post
                    Yeah, Wayland will die like that. Just like KDE4 did.

                    Yeah, many more examples of projects dying that way .. Pulseaudio, Systemd, Gnome 3, Unity/Compiz.. Probably more.

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                    • #40
                      Buggy drivers still crash the system

                      I try run Nvidia with nouveau drivers and my system crashes.

                      Buggy drivers make the whole operating system crash, it sucks!
                      On Windows, if a device driver crash, it just restarts it and keeps on working like normal.

                      So something must be shit. I don't know if its Linux, DRI, DRM, Nouveau, Weston, or Xorg but something sucks.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                        They were shoved down people's throats.
                        What the fuck does that even mean? You can still, after five years later, remove PulseAudio if you so desire. Also if you want Gnome 2 like experience you can still have that too. Even KDE 3.5 is maintained by openSUSE. I personally use both systemd and PulseAudio because they are superior to anything that's out there. I would assume that to be the reason why almost every distribution does that too.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Teho View Post
                          What the fuck does that even mean? You can still, after five years later, remove PulseAudio if you so desire. Also if you want Gnome 2 like experience you can still have that too. Even KDE 3.5 is maintained by openSUSE. I personally use both systemd and PulseAudio because they are superior to anything that's out there. I would assume that to be the reason why almost every distribution does that too.
                          You're forgetting that what BO$$ describes as "shoving down someone's throat" is in fact the laziness of switching to something new that fits your needs.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                            As if anybody chose any of those.They were shoved down people's throats. Systemd is the next shit we'll have to put up with...
                            You know what? I use Linux for about a year now .. I started with Ubuntu, used/tried various others separately or on parallel, Fedora, Mint, Arch, Ultimate Edition, OpenSUSE, etc, then went back to Ubuntu. Out of those, the one I had and used as my main system for the most time was Arch Linux. Arch Linux at the time had neither Systemd nor Pulseaudio * by default. I had Alsa and sysvinit or whatever it's called. I chose and installed Pulseaudio and Systemd and didn't regret it, in fact they sokved various issues I had. I've used Gnome 2(I used and old version of a distro) and Mate and prefer the newer version, in fact, regardless of what trolls say, I can do anything on Gnome 3 that I did on Gnome 2 and have all customization options(except use some weird addon/applet whatever from outer space that would probably break between Gnome 2 versions anyway ... Not that I needed many extra applets ever myself .. Oh, I can use my gtk2 themes either, but that's not really a Gnome thing). If someone still can't find them after all this time .. Sorry, it's your fault ..
                            (I'm talking about delete panels, add/move/delete applets and whatnot, it's all there in Gnome Classic and you can have most of it with Gnome Shell extensions too).
                            I use KDE 4 now and it's awsome too. In fact it's also more lightweight on the same machine than Gnome 2 + Compiz, and if I disable desktop effects I', sure it rivals metacity.
                            Never had a problem with Unity either .. Except it could crash sometimes when changing compiz settings and I'd need to log out and in, but not during use.
                            Want to stay in the old days? LXDE, MATE and XFCE is there and you can have them preinstalled in many distros if you want. But I don't really want Windows 98/XP UI copy and don't have a 15 year old machine either, although it's a fairly cheap one.
                            [never liked the menu in XP or 98 from when I first used them and hadn't seen others, so I don't like the concept much in Linux either]. The new UIs feel to me less cluttered and more elegant(and whatever you say, for me their faster to do what I want and easier), notice how many things Gnome 2 packs on its panels for example?

                            I can't comprehend what problem systemd has .. Oh it's made by Lenart, forgot ..!
                            And it's ... New .. As if different. And faster(faster == bad).

                            So all in all, I find that all the changes have positive results till now. Some people(probably you too?) seem to hate change too much ... Even if it's better in any way.
                            And if any of the previous changes were unneeded and could be implemented better .. I certainly see Wayland being done the right way till now. Full backwards compatibility with X and developers explain what the purpose is for each change, I haven't really seen something changing for no reason on it.
                            Also, if X were to be improved in the areas it needs, I doubt it would make a great difference from making Wayland .. But it'd probably be more unlikely to have backward compatibility. And we can also keep X this way and not push the changes to the ones who truly don't need(probably people that noticed it's called X SERVER for a reason and want the features that go more with the last part). Because as I mentioned X was initially designed with another use in mind. We use it because quite frankly there's nothing else to use ...
                            There's were some projects, but I think they were mostly bad copies/mods of X.
                            Also kudos to X.org devs, they've made tremendous progress on X in the years that passed, I must admit.
                            Btw, if you want X you can still use it. Although you'll rant about it will be deprecated, unmaintained and be useless in the end .. Which will be after like 10 years, long after Wayland works fine and your PC has broken and you'll have to install new things anyway on your new one ..
                            Just see other similar cases and you'll understand.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Teho View Post
                              On top of what 89c51 said; It's pretty cool for "research project" to be supported by upstream Qt, GTK+, Clutter, SDL, EFL... Not to mention the intrest from the developers of various open source projects like Compiz and KWin. It's also already used by Tizen and some other embedded systems.
                              Like I said, it has lots of goodwill, and this is really good for a project like this.

                              Most of the support you mention is experimental, unreleased, and trivial to implement. Still, it is nice.

                              In terms of production environment, Wayland isn't used anywhere yet, so yes, it's pretty much a research project right now. With potential to become the next standard, yes. But we're a long way off from that.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by curaga View Post
                                Half of those things aren't X's faults. It's quite unfair to blame it for problems in something else.
                                That's a perfect example of people expecting pink elephants in the sky from Wayland. It's an interesting project, but people have unrealistic expectations. It will affect developers far more than users, and I don't expect any huge performance benefits. Most of modern desktops completely bypass most of X and render directly, X is just used for blitting. That is exactly the reason why Wayland is so interesting -- because it can do the same thing without 99% of the cruft X is dragging along and which is rarely used today.

                                That, and the chance to fix some things in the process.

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