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  • Talk Of NVIDIA Looking At Wayland Support

    Phoronix: Talk Of NVIDIA Looking At Wayland Support

    Reports are surfacing that NVIDIA is looking at ways to implement Wayland support for their binary Linux graphics driver...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTE2MjY

  • #2
    Nice to hear this, but it woud be better if Nvidia woud support Nuveau driver. I hope that all applications are able to work in Wayland without X11 in long term.

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    • #3
      i knew they would cave in. unless the main dev of wayland gets killed, I really don't see wayland failing. its a win win for everyone other than old neckbeards who live in 1984.

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      • #4
        Just what I expected to hear: it's not out, so no plans to commit resources - that's the sane thing to do. Keeping an eye out for Wayland is also a bonus. The only thing that could become a problem is Wayland attitude towards blobs; they have ignored blobs so far. This can be justified, concentrate available resources to getting Wayland to 1.0 first, deal with non-essential features after you have a stable, solid product. Afaik, there is no info available about possible blob support. Seeing that nvidia takes Wayland seriously, let's hope the reciprocal is also true.

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        • #5
          I predict yet another Phoronix superthread.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by bug77 View Post
            Just what I expected to hear: it's not out, so no plans to commit resources - that's the sane thing to do. Keeping an eye out for Wayland is also a bonus. The only thing that could become a problem is Wayland attitude towards blobs; they have ignored blobs so far. This can be justified, concentrate available resources to getting Wayland to 1.0 first, deal with non-essential features after you have a stable, solid product. Afaik, there is no info available about possible blob support. Seeing that nvidia takes Wayland seriously, let's hope the reciprocal is also true.
            Wayland doesn't have a good or bad attitude towards blobs, it's about blobs not working under Wayland because they've been written to work on Unix-like systems only under X.org, hence to make the blobs work with Wayland the best way would be to implement EGL & KMS support, that is, the stuff that Wayland relies on. There's no bias nor artificial barriers.

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            • #7
              I don't use discrete GPU anymore, I only have a Intel IVB CPU+iGPU for now and future, I'm very happy with more cooler, power efficiency and quiet!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by mark45 View Post
                Wayland doesn't have a good or bad attitude towards blobs, it's about blobs not working under Wayland because they've been written to work on Unix-like systems only under X.org, hence to make the blobs work with Wayland the best way would be to implement EGL & KMS support, that is, the stuff that Wayland relies on. There's no bias nor artificial barriers.
                I didn't mean they were hostile or anything. Just that I'm not aware of any efforts to accommodate blobs yet and if Wayland doesn't show any interest past 1.0, this could become a problem. But as long as Wayland and others agree to tackle blob support together, we'll all be in heaven.

                PS I doubt nvidia's blob was written for X.org only because it seems to be working fine on Windows, too.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by bug77 View Post
                  I didn't mean they were hostile or anything. Just that I'm not aware of any efforts to accommodate blobs yet and if Wayland doesn't show any interest past 1.0, this could become a problem. But as long as Wayland and others agree to tackle blob support together, we'll all be in heaven.

                  PS I doubt nvidia's blob was written for X.org only because it seems to be working fine on Windows, too.
                  An X dev here in the forums stated that its easy for the blob makers to support wayland. So the problem isn't the wayland devs not wanting to support blobs.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                    An X dev here in the forums stated that its easy for the blob makers to support wayland. So the problem isn't the wayland devs not wanting to support blobs.
                    I think you refer to Daniel Stone's posts some weeks ago.

                    http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...009#post277009

                    Originally posted by daniels View Post
                    Originally posted by johnc View Post
                    And I already see how Wayland is going to go:

                    "We didn't bother to even consider the existence of binary drivers."

                    And sure enough, absolutely nothing will work outside of FOSS-land. People will be forced to engage in all kinds of Wayland-on-X hackery to get basic functionality and the masses will avoid Linux like the plague... And where does that put companies like Valve? Questioning their priorities and commitments, probably.
                    Absolute nonsense.

                    The Wayland GL integration was in fact designed to make it as easy as possible. There's nothing Mesa-specific about it, and NVIDIA could do it quite easily today with not very much work. Certainly it would be infinitely smaller than their X driver, which is huge and spectacularly complex. They just don't want to at the moment, because the customers they care about (thousands of workstations) aren't interested right now.
                    Last edited by entropy; 08-18-2012, 07:46 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                      An X dev here in the forums stated that its easy for the blob makers to support wayland. So the problem isn't the wayland devs not wanting to support blobs.
                      Well, if it's already easy to do, maybe I was concerned over nothing. With nvidia already showing interest, we should be good. All we have to do is wait another year or more

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bug77 View Post
                        I didn't mean they were hostile or anything. Just that I'm not aware of any efforts to accommodate blobs yet and if Wayland doesn't show any interest past 1.0, this could become a problem. But as long as Wayland and others agree to tackle blob support together, we'll all be in heaven.

                        PS I doubt nvidia's blob was written for X.org only because it seems to be working fine on Windows, too.
                        The Wayland devs are ready and open, it's Nvidia who has to step in and start cooperating, the source code is there, just read it and propose better solutions if you (Nvidia) have ones. But the cooperation must be reasonable, e.g. Nvidia can't ask to remove KMS and/or EGL (or any other core concept) in favor of something that suits Nvidia better.

                        Nvidia's Unix/Linux blob was written only for X.org, but of course the driver core is platform neutral. Though non-core stuff is X.org specific - it has XRandR, COMPOSITE, xlib etc etc support which is not needed under Wayland either at all or replaced with the corresponding (and simpler) Wayland solution.

                        I'm sure creating a driver for Wayland is way easier than for X.org because by today's standards the latter is an old, sophisticated and wacky standard.
                        Last edited by mark45; 08-18-2012, 09:01 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mark45 View Post
                          Wayland doesn't have a good or bad attitude towards blobs, it's about blobs not working under Wayland because they've been written to work on Unix-like systems only under X.org, hence to make the blobs work with Wayland the best way would be to implement EGL & KMS support, that is, the stuff that Wayland relies on. There's no bias nor artificial barriers.
                          Can binary drivers implement KMS without using EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by asdx
                            No, they can't.
                            This page also discusses this and implies that Nvidia can.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mark45 View Post
                              This page also discusses this and implies that Nvidia can.
                              Quote from this page:
                              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                              Binary blob drivers do all their memory management and modesetting in kernel space. They already have "KMS", it's just not the open source KMS which is used by Mesa drivers, but their own closed-source re-implementation.
                              So nVidia driver and fglrx already have KMS and fglrx even already have EGL (but this implementation probably require testing with Weston (or other Wayland compositor) before it will be available in regular fglrx releases).

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