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Binary Driver Blobs Aren't Yet Ready For Wayland

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  • #61
    AMD do release specifications for developers
    Really? Because I was over looking on the AMD developer site and all I saw was 3 or 4 docs that were 4 or 5 year old. I would love to give the docs for SI a read. Can you point me to them please?


    • #62
      Originally posted by asdx
      I apologize if I've offended you, I think there's no point to keep going with the insults.

      Or feel free to insult me, but please don't insult nouveau anymore.

      I just don't get why you guys say you love Linux and open source so much but then you call projects like nouveau "garbage".

      Fine, use your blob all you want, but please don't insult nouveau anymore.
      1st. i don't give a crap about you apology. you are only issuing one because other users (including myself) would love to see you get banned from phoronix forums.

      did you even read what i wrote? do you have rocks in your head??? I did NOT say nouveau is garbage, nor was my intention to insult it's developers, it just happens to be reality that nouveau is a very poor quality sub-standard driver (or in my words garbage) compared to the blob. that doesn't mean nouveau IS garbage, it just means when comparing it to the blob, it is. - there is no insult to nouveau there.

      Originally posted by asdx
      Or at least if you appreciate open source, take the time to try nouveau from time to time and report issues if you find any. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
      I do periodically test out nouveau, and like i've already told you - when i had the opportunity, i even use RENouveau - which does help Nouveau's development. is you who is not comprehending the facts, and having a hard time being reasonable towards others.

      i mean look at this bullshit you pointed in the other thread, when a Nvidia Linux developer posted;

      Originally posted by asdx
      Originally posted by Plagman

      We're very sorry for the inconvenience that this is causing. We're currently working on putting up our own UNIX support forums and retrieving the data from the now-disabled NvNews UNIX forums. As you know, we're also currently having forum issues of our own so the timing is a little unfortunate, but we hope to be able to provide a new set of official support forums soon.

      In the meantime and until this is resolved, please send your feedback and bug reports to I will update this topic as soon as there is news.

      Again, sorry for the inconvenience. We really value your participation and I hope to see you on the new forums as soon as they're up.

      - Pierre-Loup Griffais
      NVIDIA Linux Graphics
      Fuck you nvidia.

      Either provide specifications to the nouveau developers or GTFO.

      Nobody in his right mind wants your piece of shit and broken blob.
      you are absolutely brutal, asdx.

      and lets not forget your earlier post telling someone to go and die in a fire :\

      people like you do a great disservice to the linux community and the larger OSS community.
      Last edited by ninez; 07-25-2012, 07:50 PM.


      • #63
        AMD didn't release any noteworthy documentation after an initial dump a few years ago. My requests for documentation weren't really answered either, I only heard lousy excuses by AMD people. This is not how you motivate people to contribute... So, actually, AMD is not much worse than Nvidia in this regard.

        What's also strange is that some people have very warped views about the level of support the open drivers provide. People convinced me that Brazos APUs work fine nowadays, and in turn I bought a Brazos machine - only to find out that power management is completely defunct and that 2D performance is very bad.


        • #64
          Originally posted by jvillain View Post
          Really? Because I was over looking on the AMD developer site and all I saw was 3 or 4 docs that were 4 or 5 year old. I would love to give the docs for SI a read. Can you point me to them please?
          AFAIK, all available documentation is listed at the bottom of

          The latest docs seem to be Cayman/NI from November '11.
          SI is missing yet.


          • #65
            Originally posted by asdx
            A few years ago people were complaining that there wasn't much innovation going on Linux, these days we have things like Wayland and people come and say "I hope Wayland DIAF already". WTF?

            I mean I have no problem with you (or anyone else) using the blob, but please people, don't insult projects like nouveau and Wayland. They are very good things for Linux.
            Getting back on topic... I do wish Wayland would DIAF because I think it's going to be a completely unnecessary upheaval of the Linux graphics system... and for very little, if any, added value over what we have now. And the fact that devs have repeatedly shown to be very apathetic (if not hostile) towards the blobs is a cue that it's going to be doubly-broken for the significant percentage of users (and potential Valve customers) who actually want to use the binary drivers.

            I can only imagine the headaches that will be coming from trying to configure a hybrid X / Wayland system.

            Unless I'm wrong and everything is smooth-sailing, it's going to be a major stumbling block for further acceptance of Linux on the desktop.


            • #66
              Originally posted by asdx
              Yes, it is, using the word "garbage" is insulting. Or perhaps I'm just too sensitive.

              Please consider choosing another word at least, it wouldn't be offensive if you say at least that "nouveau has inferior 3D performance than the blob" or something similar, which is to be expected anyway from a RE'd driver. I think you realize that nouveau is 100% made from RE'd code/effort and without the support/documentation from nvidia, right?
              I don't care if it is RE'd - it isn't performant - and it doesn't use nvidia hardware the way it was intended to be used. if you don't like garbage, fine. junk, crap, etc - in comparision to the blob, will do just fine. because it's not just 3d performance, it's CUDA/OpenCL, power management, etc...

              Originally posted by asdx
              So please put yourself in the position from those developers who are working very hard day/night to give us an open-source alternative to the blob.
              interesting how you expect me to put myself in their position and yet you just shat on 1 nvidia linux developer who probably makes ZERO decisions regarding Nvidia releasing specs/documentation and ZERO decisions on open-sourcing their driver. it's funny because you sat theree and called me a hypocrite - well guess what, asdx - your above statement is a REAL example of someone being hypocritical (of just daft?)..

              Originally posted by asdx
              Sorry about that, I guess I've exaggerated a bit, but I get offended when people insult developer's work when they try to move development and progress forward. Which is very healthy for Linux. Sigh.

              A few years ago people were complaining that there wasn't much innovation going on Linux, these days we have things like Wayland and people come and say "I hope Wayland DIAF already". WTF?
              I never said anything negative about Wayland, now did i? as far as intentionally insulting a Nouveau developer that wasn't my goal, what you take as an insult was nothing more than a comparison :\ you just didn't like my language. oh well.

              Originally posted by asdx
              I mean I have no problem with you (or anyone else) using the blob, but please people, don't insult projects like nouveau and Wayland. They are very good things for Linux.
              really?? then how come earlier you were calling us all 'open-source hypocrites' and telling us to go and die and to fuck off in almost every post. I think you are only saying to the contrary now, because you thought everyone agreed with you, right up until they started saying otherwise. :\
              I see right through your crap, kid.

              Originally posted by asdx
              They deserve it.
              So Plagman, who literally probably makes none of the decisions who have a beef with - deserved to be treated that way?? you are so ignorant, especially when you expect that i need to respect Nouveau developers - when at the worst, my words may have been rugged - your intent was absolutely malicious. straight up!

              Originally posted by asdx
              Again, I get offended and touchy when somebody insults open source projects.

              We should be thanking and supporting the open-source developers instead of being against them and cursing them or their projects.
              you get offended, but have no problem shitting all over other people? awesome - you have serious cognitive dissonance going on, pal. And why you keep asserting I am 'against OSS developers" i have no idea, we've already been through this :\

              I have a choice in which driver i use with my Nvidia hardware - i choose to use the blob, since it actually utilizes the hardware, unlike nouveau - end of story.


              • #67
                Originally posted by asdx
                Saying that it doesn't perform as well as the blob in 3D is enough. I don't know why you pick such inflammatory words, but whatever. I think nouveau is a lot better than the blob and a state-of-the-art work in general, but that's my opinion and you don't have to agree with me, so let's just agree to disagree here.
                you are being to sensitive and taking something personally when you shouldn't. and it's not just 3d, it's that, power management, lack of support for opengl4.x, lack of CUDA/OpenCL, etc. ~~ If i owned a car that's transmission was screwy, was missing one tire and had a blown head basket - ie: not fully functional - i would call it junk compared to a brand new car. - there is nothing inflamatory about it. In fact, if i had the money i would ditch the old car and buy a new one. In case, you haven't figured out the analogy - the old car is nouveau while the new car is Nvidia.

                Originally posted by asdx
                Well, I don't think Nvidia deserves any respect, but that's me. Even Linus doesn't respect them.
                so your stance is that every person who works for nvidia doesn't deserve respect - not even as a human being? WOW. and stop using a plea to authority - i don't care what Linus thinks, stop using him to justify your own beliefs... You also can't claim that Linus would treat every Nvidia employee the way you just treated the Nvidia Linux developer whom visited this forum - and if i remember correctly, there was an Nvidia guy in the crowd of the 'fuck you, Nvidia' video - i don't remember Linus singling him out and being a prick like you were.

                Originally posted by asdx
                I don't want you guys to die, sorry for using such language, I apologize. I've simply lost my temper when johnc said that Wayland should DIAF.
                grow up. this is no rational justification for your behavior. :\

                Originally posted by asdx
                I don't think any people from Nvidia deserves respect at this point. They have done nothing to earn it.
                Who are you to make that call, and how do you know this? - are you privy to everything that goes on @ Nvidia? Somehow i doubt you are an Omniscient being, and thus aren't privy to such knowledge.... you seriously need to open up your mind a little bit, and put a little more thought into this.

                Originally posted by asdx
                Sure, Linux is about choices and I'm fine with that, I also have a choice to express my frustration with Nvidia, so does Linus and so does anyone.

                I apologize for insulting you, but I still believe that Nvidia doesn't deserve any respect when they have done nothing to earn it, but caused grief to many Linux developers (including Linus Torvalds). In any case, Nvidia deserves to be boycotted.
                that is fine if you feel that way. (and FYI you don't need to keep using Linus as justification - I am aware of the situation, not only from his specific point of view, but other kernel developers as well, such as the RT crowd (i've been on the list / in discussions on occasion for 5-6yrs now). the part i have a problem with is you jumping down everyone else's throats for decisions they make for themselves, on their own machines, on their own dime. - which you were doing, earlier. just take a chill pill. Hell, you think as someone who uses Nvidia hardware/drivers i don't have my disagreements with how they go about things? but it doesn't mean i have to log into these forums and say 'fuck you, nvidia every two minutes' and be a dick to others over the matter.

                my advice - write them an email or two. When they launch their new forum, join and start a civil discussion about their short-comings and where you see improvements could be made.

                telling everyone to f-off is counter productive and childish.



                • #68
                  Originally posted by asdx
                  Yeah I went too far on that one, sorry. But I think we all were childish and immature at insulting each other. Perhaps not you, but johnc saying "Wayland should just DIAF", I disagree with his comment about Wayland but let's not get into a fight over it.
                  haha... i knew you would respond by telling me to go DIAF and to f off... so i didn't take it personally.


                  • #69
                    I for one, actually need the nvidia blog to even run linux. The nouveou developers have been dragging their heals with even getting some cards to work at all. I have a geforce gt 240, which is known to not work at all with nouveou, and I've yet to hear about anybody getting to work to fix it. Not to mention, that I actually DO game on my Linux. I play alot of minecraft, humble bundle games, and steam via wine. None of those would probably work adequetly with the OSS drivers.

                    And unfortunately, I don't think the OSS driver situation is going to improve that much anytime soon until more development resources are put towards driver development by companies. And hardware manufacturers are able to actually reveal how their hardware and drivers actually work, but they can't because a mess of copyright and patent laws, along with good old fashioned greed by the patent trolls who own alot of the patents.


                    • #70
                      I'd like to steer the thread a bit into talking about Android again (sorry for not quoting, but there were so many flames in the middle, that I didn't want to read through all of them again).
                      The main statement was: "The binary blobs are good for the Android ecosystem, because otherwise there would be less choice."

                      But look where that has left us? Many people cannot upgrade their OS even after a jailbreak with Cyanogenmod, because the old binary drivers are simply incompatible with the newer APIs.
                      In this case I'm speaking from experience not with gpu binary drivers, but for example, my camera drivers. They are not open; hence newer Android versions will never support my camera. Similar things happened for closed source network drivers on OpenWRT. There for many routers 2.4 kernel configurations are still the way to go, because otherwise no wireless. The Intel ATOMs with the PowerVR chipset (Poulsbo?) are another example, where insufficient binary support basically leaves you unsupported on Linux.

                      Stable APIs are good for developing drivers, but they do confine the further development. With open drivers, the person doing the API change can also fix the drivers.
                      When binary support ends, every API change will turn working hardware into a hunk of non-updatable metal.


                      • #71
                        Yes, specifically the GT 240 DDR5 has this problem. It does not work at all with nouveau. The problem has been known since January 2011 at least, but nobody bothered to actually look into it, the GPU isn't even blacklisted in nouveau. That means every Linux (every somewhat recent Live CD or whatever) locks up on boot, if you have this GPU. The only output I ever got from nouveau developers was that it "should work".

                        As long as stuff like this is common (and it is!), the open source drivers cannot be taken seriously, IMO.
                        Last edited by brent; 07-26-2012, 05:05 AM.


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                          So basically why is it so hard to make the blobs run with wayland?
                          Who said it is? As far as I know, Wayland doesn't care which modesetting and gl implementation is used. Now Weston may be tied to KMS and DRI2, but Weston is just a reference compositor. If it can't be easily adjusted for the blobs, there will be other compositors that can. Or maybe even Weston can be easily adapted, it's just that no one has done it because there hasn't yet been a reason to do it.


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by bug77 View Post
                            After all, nvidia has a driver that works on both Windows' protocol and X (on Linux, BSD and Solaris, no less) with minimum adaptations already.
                            'Minimum adaptations' is both ridiculous and wrong. Their X11 driver is crazy complex and deeply X-specific.


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by johnc View Post
                              And I already see how Wayland is going to go:

                              "We didn't bother to even consider the existence of binary drivers."

                              And sure enough, absolutely nothing will work outside of FOSS-land. People will be forced to engage in all kinds of Wayland-on-X hackery to get basic functionality and the masses will avoid Linux like the plague... And where does that put companies like Valve? Questioning their priorities and commitments, probably.
                              Absolute nonsense.

                              The Wayland GL integration was in fact designed to make it as easy as possible. There's nothing Mesa-specific about it, and NVIDIA could do it quite easily today with not very much work. Certainly it would be infinitely smaller than their X driver, which is huge and spectacularly complex. They just don't want to at the moment, because the customers they care about (thousands of workstations) aren't interested right now.


                              • #75
                                Please RTFA, asdx.
                                The good news is that it looks like the ex-NVIDIA engineer has caved under pressure and will grant patent immunity to open-source projects. From Doug's blog, "I have heard you and I am granting the open source community immunity from this patent."
                                This isn't even about NVIDIA, but about one of their EX-employees having a patent on his name. Anyways, your bitching is unnecessary as it appears the patent will be usable by the open source community.