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Wayland Demonstration At XDS 2010

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  • #16
    GTK or Clutter backend

    [QUOTE=smitty3268;148724]Supporting Qt doesn't mean that Wayland is necessarily c++. The changes required are done inside the Qt code, so that instead of drawing onto an pixmap or opengl texture, it instead draws on whatever Wayland uses. Wayland itself doesn't need to be touched at all.

    Of course, I'm not sure what Wayland is written in, it may have already been c++ from the start or it could still be plain C.[/QUOT]

    It is not what I meant. What added value would have a wayland backend instead of a libdrm gallium 3d libxkb backend for gtk or clutter?

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    • #17
      It's written in C

      Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
      Of course, I'm not sure what Wayland is written in, it may have already been c++ from the start or it could still be plain C.
      Wayland is written in C.

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      • #18
        Thanks for explanation. So, it is safe to say that Wayland is what will become X12

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        • #19
          Originally posted by gnufreex View Post
          Thanks for explanation. So, it is safe to say that Wayland is what will become X12
          No that would be wrong. X12 would be an evolution of X11. Wayland is a completely different project that can replace X but is much less featured. If you want network support for example you'd still have to run X on top of Wayland.

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          • #20
            C++ is kludge, we all know it

            Originally posted by Plombo View Post
            Ok good.

            Now, what benefit a wayland backend will have compared to a libdrm/gallium3D/libxkb backend for GTK+/Clutter?

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            • #21
              May I ask why C++ would be such a disaster? It doesn't always mean slower...

              Not that I think C++ would be better suited than C in this case.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by V!NCENT View Post
                May I ask why C++ would be such a disaster? It doesn't always mean slower...

                Not that I think C++ would be better suited than C in this case.
                matter of choice: a C++ compiler/the C++ ABI/the C++ stdlib are just massive kludges. As I perceive it, they do not provide enough benefits for their cost in terms of software complexity and size (I was a C++ coder). Moreover, I noticed that C++ projects have the very naughty tendency to derive quickly towards brain fu**age. Well, we are talking C++ here, but it's the same with any languages with complex semantics (like full blown object orientation) included in their syntax. To give you the feeling: I can give a basic C compiler to write to a student and that would be reasonable, but to give a basic C++ compiler to write to a student would be perceived as sadistic. And let me remind you that it took decades for g++ to reach a reasonable support of the C++ standard.
                I repeat, it's a matter of choice of where you put the limits. And *I* do drive strongly towards simplification as much as it can (not simpler) of the software stack *as a whole*. An efficient kernel and an optimizing C compiler are already complex enough. If one day, we have a language which adds significant features while retaining the simplicity of the C language, let's start to write an efficient kernel. In the meantime, let's stick to C.

                But we move away from the wayland benefit subject compare to libdrm/gallium3d/libxkb. As far as I understand it, wayland benefit would only be the network protocol. Any thoughts?

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                • #23
                  Actually I recall the main reason to switch from C to C++ is that it reduces (or rather hides) a lot of the complexity. That very same full-blown object orientation is what supposedly makes it simpler.
                  Note, simpler to write projects in, not to write a compiler for.

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                  • #24
                    C++ is better for larger projects, although headers could simply do the same in C, right?

                    C would be much better for small projects and low level stuff like drivers and kernels.

                    But why the hate for C++? I've seen it and I don't think it's realy based on anything but some nonsense experience.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nanonyme View Post
                      Actually I recall the main reason to switch from C to C++ is that it reduces (or rather hides) a lot of the complexity. That very same full-blown object orientation is what supposedly makes it simpler.
                      Note, simpler to write projects in, not to write a compiler for.
                      It is exactly the issue there. When you consider the software stack as a whole, you cannot neglect the complexity of the C++ compiler/C++ ABI/C++ stdlib. For much software the benefits of having object orientation directly hardwired in the syntax is not worth the added complexity. It is even worse: the object orientation syntax does not simplify the code, it pushes the coders to create massive object orientish kludge! It requires a very good code hygien... but that hygien would be requiered in *any* language, then better have hygien in a "less costly" language, like the father of all: C.

                      Please! Stick to the wayland topic!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by sylware View Post
                        Ok good.

                        Now, what benefit a wayland backend will have compared to a libdrm/gallium3D/libxkb backend for GTK+/Clutter?
                        From my pretty basic and possibly wrong understanding, Wayland still uses libdrm and Gallium3D but uses libxkbcommon rather than libxkb for keyboard input.

                        The benifit is that you don't have to run an X server any more and have a much simpler and more lightweight display server.

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                        • #27
                          C++ is a very powerful language, which is a double edged sword. It's easy to do some very nice things, but it's also easy to complicate the code. It encourages some of the best and worst in coders, so you just have to be careful about what you allow and make sure all contributors follow the recommendations.

                          Back to Wayland - at the very least, it would allow you to run on top of the proprietary drivers without forcing you to switch to the OSS Gallium3D drivers.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                            Back to Wayland - at the very least, it would allow you to run on top of the proprietary drivers without forcing you to switch to the OSS Gallium3D drivers.
                            What is this in relation to? I thought Wayland wouldn't be able to run on the proprietary Nvidia drivers as Nvidia would have to provide kernel mode setting support, and they didn't have any plans to do so.

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