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Wayland Updated With KMS Page-Flipping Ioctl

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  • Wayland Updated With KMS Page-Flipping Ioctl

    Phoronix: Wayland Updated With KMS Page-Flipping Ioctl

    The Wayland Display Server hasn't received any new commits to its code repository since early October, but now it has received some new work. In particular, Wayland is now able to take advantage of the KMS page-flipping ioctl that was recently pushed into the Linux 2.6.33 kernel. The latest Wayland code now takes advantage of the latest revision to this API and is also now dependent upon libdrm 2.4.17, which was just released this week...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=NzgyOQ

  • #2
    I wonder what Red Hat's stands are on Wayland?

    What I think of is, if they would include it in Fedora for people to try just for fun?

    Comment


    • #3
      Can we expect a Qt Wayland backend, or is Cairo the primary (and only) goal for the moment? Given that Qt is fully open source now, some enthusiast could well try and hack up a backend. Or will Qt use Cairo (impossible, IMHO)?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Louise View Post
        What I think of is, if they would include it in Fedora for people to try just for fun?
        If someone (you?) packages it, then I don't see why not

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        • #5
          Originally posted by hubick View Post
          If someone (you?) packages it, then I don't see why not
          hehe =)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by thorgt View Post
            Can we expect a Qt Wayland backend, or is Cairo the primary (and only) goal for the moment? Given that Qt is fully open source now, some enthusiast could well try and hack up a backend. Or will Qt use Cairo (impossible, IMHO)?
            From what I've read, I think the aim is for Qt and GTK and anything else useful to be able to run on Wayland, but it will take a lot of work and at the moment there just isn't anyone working on it. There was a Clutter backend developed, I'm not sure what the status of that is.

            This article says that a GTK backend is planned: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=NzEzNQ

            Qt running on Wayland would be awesome though
            Last edited by ad_267; 12-21-2009, 03:45 PM.

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            • #7
              So what about X11? I did read Gallium(3D or now's more than just 3D?) is going to implement X11 in it as well OpenGL, OpenVG and other undergoing implementations.

              Does this mean a giant buch of LOC (lines of code) aka Xorg can be replaced someday by a much tinier and compact codebase but equivalent in the important functionality (KISS principle)? So we don't need to wait for endless delays and tons of overbloated software, instead using just the kernel and OS resources for controlling and using the hardware.

              So Wayland will become part of a brilliant future of freedom and innovation in the FOSS graphics world or just a funny gimmick like Compiz?

              If Wayland implements Qt, GTK, WxWidgets and whatever is needed for end user... can be a real replacement of Xorg?

              Or maybe Wayland can became the next gen sucessor, and Xorg project adopting the codebase?
              Will we go to see a situation similar to Xfree vs Xorg, EGCS vs GCC, Beryl vs Compiz again?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by timofonic View Post
                So what about X11? I did read Gallium(3D or now's more than just 3D?) is going to implement X11 in it
                Please no please no please no pl..

                The X11 protocol is abysmal for desktop usage and should be retired at the earliest possible opportunity. Get the compiz devs and the gnome-globalmenu devs and the KDE and GNOME people and the folks at Google all in one place and start over.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by timofonic View Post
                  So what about X11? I did read Gallium(3D or now's more than just 3D?) is going to implement X11 in it as well OpenGL, OpenVG and other undergoing implementations.
                  The xorg state tracker will provide EXA and Xv acceleration only.
                  The is also a generic 2D driver being developed called xf86-video-modesetting which provides a DDX driver that uses KMS for modesetting and uses Gallium3D for acceleration

                  Does this mean a giant buch of LOC (lines of code) aka Xorg can be replaced someday by a much tinier and compact codebase but equivalent in the important functionality (KISS principle)? So we don't need to wait for endless delays and tons of overbloated software, instead using just the kernel and OS resources for controlling and using the hardware.
                  Wayland is not a drop-in replacement for X. It doesn't use the same protocol, so all window managers need to be re-written. All toolkits need to be able to use Wayland. All applications that use X libraries need to switch. However, with Wayland, it is possible to run an X-server inside of Wayland for backwards compatibility.

                  So Wayland will become part of a brilliant future of freedom and innovation in the FOSS graphics world or just a funny gimmick like Compiz?

                  If Wayland implements Qt, GTK, WxWidgets and whatever is needed for end user... can be a real replacement of Xorg?

                  Or maybe Wayland can became the next gen sucessor, and Xorg project adopting the codebase?
                  Wayland is entirely independent of Xorg, and does not use the X protocol, Xorg will never 'adopt' Wayland, but we may eventually see Wayland become the display server, and X only be developed for backwards compatibility with older applications.

                  Will we go to see a situation similar to Xfree vs Xorg, EGCS vs GCC, Beryl vs Compiz again?
                  These are entirely different things.
                  Xorg was a fork off of Xfree86, and became widely used.
                  Egcs was a fork off of gcc and gcc-derived projects, and became the official gcc.
                  Beryl was a fork off Compiz, and it merged back together with Compiz.

                  Wayland is not a fork off of Xorg, it is something different that can run Xorg inside of it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ethana2 View Post
                    Please no please no please no pl..

                    The X11 protocol is abysmal for desktop usage and should be retired at the earliest possible opportunity. Get the compiz devs and the gnome-globalmenu devs and the KDE and GNOME people and the folks at Google all in one place and start over.
                    Well, it's OK. But what about remote desktop? I agree local access must use a lot less bloated way, but what protocol to use for remote graphical access?

                    Of course, the successor must be as flexible or more like X11 and add features like Xaudio. If the protocol can be more efficient for slow internet connections and avoid the use of NX/FreeNX even better.

                    Don't forget OpenGL, MPX-like stuff (multitouch)...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by timofonic View Post
                      Well, it's OK. But what about remote desktop? I agree local access must use a lot less bloated way, but what protocol to use for remote graphical access?

                      Of course, the successor must be as flexible or more like X11 and add features like Xaudio. If the protocol can be more efficient for slow internet connections and avoid the use of NX/FreeNX even better.

                      Don't forget OpenGL, MPX-like stuff (multitouch)...
                      I think the entire idea behind Wayland is to NOT have any of the remote desktop protocols in the graphics system. Cutting that(and a lot of other) clutter out of the existing X11 solution.

                      NX, VNC, or something else would be a better solution. It doesn't add the extra overhead that is in X11 with its networking ability.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The 'networking overhead' of X11 is almost nill. That and VNC sucks huge donkey dick when compared to X11 networking. NX is pretty cool, but advancements in toolkits are helping out X a lot (ignoring the fact that NX requires X Windows anyways...).


                        People have this misconception that X is slow because it has to go through some sort of networking stack, which entirely misinformed.

                        When using X locally your going over 'fast unix sockets' which is a very low overhead form of IPC and is plenty fast. As fast as anything you'd get for standardized multi process communication on any other platform. There is definitely some overhead associated with X, but it's not the performance killer people are making it out to be.


                        X is slow, not because of the networking, but because Linux graphics drivers suck. Fixing the Linux drivers is what is necessary for Wayland to work properly _at_all_... and is also the same exact thing that will make your X server much faster.


                        X is bloated, not because of the networking, but because the stupid thing has been around for decades and decades and has been the victim of a combination of bad corporate policies and a software license that discourages code sharing. That is where the 'bloat' comes from. It's called 'legacy overhead'.

                        It has much less to do with the networking then the fact that it's designed to be backwards compatible with all the Unix/Linux graphic software made in the past 15 years (or so).


                        ----------------------------


                        THAT and Wayland and X are not mutually exclusive.

                        YOU CAN HAVE BOTH.

                        With Wayland and composited desktops you will have a X server that renders windows off-screen and then are composited together on the Wayland managed display.

                        Therefore you do not have to give up X networking to use Wayland.

                        I don't know if they have this setup yet, but it is certainly in the cards since nobody in their right mind will sacrifice application compatibility for a minor boost in performance.

                        So if Wayland is to make any headway it will end up supporting X in some manner, most likely through composition. Either that or Wayland will die.

                        -------------------------------


                        Oh and Gallium is compatible with both. Which is the point of having Gallium.

                        With Gallium you can support multiple APIs (relatively) easily by adding another state tracker. So this way we can get rid of having to have separate drivers for 2D and 3D and be able to support lots of other APIs like GL shading, OpenCL, vector rendering, graphics acceleration, and so on and so forth.

                        So with Gallium you can have a Wayland state tracker running along side of a X11/EXA/Xrender state tracker and have both. So your wayland display gets accelerated and your X apps get accelerated at the same time.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I wasn't talking network overhead.

                          I was saying that X11 is a big big big piece of code, with lots of features that most desktop users don't need. and the development and upkeep overhead of that is something that should NOT be adopted by Wayland, but should instead be handled by VNC or NX or something else.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TobiasTheViking View Post
                            I wasn't talking network overhead.

                            I was saying that X11 is a big big big piece of code, with lots of features that most desktop users don't need. and the development and upkeep overhead of that is something that should NOT be adopted by Wayland, but should instead be handled by VNC or NX or something else.
                            Well my comment was not just directed at you.

                            But, your talking about taking something that exists right now and rewriting it from scratch in order to lower the development effort? It does not make much sense. By the time Wayland reaches a similar level of functionality that it can replace X it'll end up being nearly as complicated.

                            That's just how these sort of things work out. That and X will still be required for software compatibility reasons, so people will end up having to support BOTH Wayland and X.

                            The loss of network transparency is just a minor inconvenience compared to that. If people did not care about backwards compatibility then they could strip out huge amounts of legacy X cruft very quickly and make that much simpler right now without having to develop something new from scratch.

                            That is not to say that Wayland does not have a chance. It's just to say that it's not a slam dunk and it's not going to be a simpler solution.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What he said, plus history has shown that such "complete rewrites" of software have been the quickest path to failure. Netscape, Lotus and countless other applications tried that approach only to be lost in the sands of time.

                              As tempting as it sounds, throwing away decades of bugfixes, optimizations, workarounds and technical expertise is *not* the way to salvation. Wayland looks interesting, but it will have support existing applications (probably by hosting an X server inside it) before it can become widely useful.

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