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Wayland: A New X Server For Linux

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  • #16
    Sound nice but what is with DRI2 ? has Kristian Høgsberg finish it ? or why he start a new Project ?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ex-Cyber View Post
      As far as I can tell, Wayland is not an X server at all, but rather implements its own (currently incomplete and experimental) protocol. The only mentions I see of X are in the sense of running an X server on top of Wayland.
      My thoughts exactly... Actually when I finished reading the article I couldn't help but rename the article in my mind to something slightly different: Wayland: Quartz for Linux...

      For those who don't know, Quartz is the display management system in OS X (soon to be replaced in OS 10.6, apparently), and is the one responsible for MacOS's pretty, snappy and composited graphics. IIRC Cocoa is the equivalent to Xinput and also implements part of the UI (Aqua being the actual tool-kit). I'm not too familiar with the whole graphics affair on MacOS beyond that.

      Oh, and for those asking about the license, being this most likely a project sponsored by Red Hat, you can rest assured that it will use an open license, most surely GPL.
      Last edited by Thetargos; 11-03-2008, 09:26 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by stan View Post
        Re-writing X will mean that old cards will become unsupported even though they may be plenty capable. No one will bother to port drivers for old cards, so distros will be forced to ship both classic X and Wayland, using up space on installation CDs.

        Making incremental increases to X is preferrable because the breakage to old cards is minimal, and old drivers automatically benefit from optimizations to the framework.
        Why do you care about old cards?

        I say forget old cards and here is why. Wayland will not be replacing X, not within the next 10-20 years at least. New cards will be the old cards and old cards, well, you won't see many of them. Doing this will make it hard to get a user-base for the first 10 years, but if done right the payoff will be great. This is the only way to beat X; from the sound if it that is not the goal.

        Note that, to replace X would not mean X has died or is unused.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Thetargos View Post
          My thoughts exactly... Actually when I finished reading the article I couldn't help but rename the article in my mind to something slightly different: Wayland: Quartz for Linux...

          For those who don't know, Quartz is the display management system in OS X (soon to be replaced in OS 10.6, apparently), and is the one responsible for MacOS's pretty, snappy and composited graphics. IIRC Cocoa is the equivalent to Xinput and also implements part of the UI (Aqua being the actual tool-kit). I'm not too familiar with the whole graphics affair on MacOS beyond that.

          Oh, and for those asking about the license, being this most likely a project sponsored by Red Hat, you can rest assured that it will use an open license, most surely GPL.
          Whoa boy...

          Quartz is a compositor and it is not going anywhere. Upgraded perhaps but not being replaced. It's roughly the OS X equivalent to xorg

          Cocoa is a framework much like QT / GTK. There is also Carbon but finally they are killing that ugly sucker in 10.6

          Aqua is the desktop the linux equivalent to KDE or Gnome.

          You can find more in depth explanations here:

          http://developer.apple.com/documenta...1067-CH273-SW5

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Thetargos View Post
            Actually when I finished reading the article I couldn't help but rename the article in my mind to something slightly different: Wayland: Quartz for Linux...
            Glad to know I'm not the only one who did that.

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            • #21
              The author of Wayland says in his blog:

              Phoronix ran an article about Wayland and slashdot in turn picked it up. They got the headline wrong, though, it's not a new X server, it's a tiny display server + compositing manager.
              So it's not "Quartz for Linux", and it won't be a short time replacement for Xserver.

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              • #22
                Looks like little more than a toy at present, but the idea is certainly a good one. I'm not sure about doing all rendering client-side, but that probably works well for some applications. I watch with interest.

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                • #23
                  By the way for those who think this development will take a long time, I think you're wrong. Don't forget that a lot of people who try to get a rewrite of software they do it from binary only releases... Now Xorg is actually an open and documented system so it's going to take much less time than what you think. Take an example of Nvidia/Nouveau vs Bittorrent clients (At what rate they are developed).

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                  • #24
                    That's not really comparable in terms of complexity...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by TechMage89 View Post
                      That's not really comparable in terms of complexity...
                      ditto, Hell it takes a long time for FOSS friendly wifi chipsets to get proper support (ie ralink) which is far more complex then a BT client but doesn't come close to the complexity of a X server.

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                      • #26
                        I also do not think this will take as long as it has taken the XServer to evolve to its present form for Wayland to either evolve to the same degree of complexity/features/support. However realistically speaking, I don't see Wayland taking over the XServer in less than 5 years time-frame, could take even longer. However, recent tilts into the development of FLOSS software has been blazing fast. Take Compiz for instance, it has taken distros to enable it by default (Ubuntu 8.10 and others) over two years, and its been under development for at least four years (that I know of, anyway), so from inception to deployment of this rather "useless" piece of desktop bling it has been about 4-5 years. I see a similar path for Wayland. It could be faster due to the interest and momentum generated by these other projects.

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                        • #27
                          I see a similar path for Wayland. It could be faster due to the interest and momentum generated by these other projects.
                          the interest from small, embedded distros might do the trick. it's quite a big market, after all (although not everybody on that market needs X).

                          take damn small linux, for instance. they use Xvesa right now. (i don't know about slitaz, perhaps they use the same thing). distributions targeted for old hardware (e.g. deli linux) are more likely to use kdrive, Xvesa and similar smaller servers instead of full xorg.

                          if there would be a better X server with similar disk/memory footprint some of those distributions would definitely take it for a spin.

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                          • #28
                            And Wayland just became the default X server in the latest Ubuntu on top of Unity.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SarahKH View Post
                              And Wayland just became the default X server in the latest Ubuntu on top of Unity.
                              My understanding was that Mark Shuttleworth blogged about possibly using Wayland under Unity a year from now... I don't believe it is the default "anything" today.

                              BTW I think this has been mentioned before, but Wayland is not an X server in any respect... it is a smaller, simpler *display* server which can occupy a similar spot in the graphics stack as long as your applications or toolkits can run over Wayland.

                              If you want X functionality (eg network extensible display protocols) and support for X applications the idea is that you would run X *over* Wayland.

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                              • #30
                                Think About Why It Takes So Long

                                Originally posted by deanjo View Post
                                ditto, Hell it takes a long time for FOSS friendly wifi chipsets to get proper support (ie ralink) which is far more complex then a BT client but doesn't come close to the complexity of a X server.
                                The very reason it takes so long for FOSS-friendly hardware to be supported properly is because FOSS is still not as large a priority as even OS X, let alone Windows - and that is entirely due to marketshare and (perceived) complexity of FOSS on the desktop. (Yes; I did say "perceived complexity" - not all FOSS distributions are difficult to install compared to OS X or Windows; in fact, some are actually *easier* to install than even Windows or OS X.)

                                I *have* a Ralink-based USB stick, which is directly supported by every OS I've thrown at it - not exactly typical.

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