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How next-gen OpenGL [5] will kill DirectX 12 (i.e. AMD's Mantle on Linux & Android) !

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  • How next-gen OpenGL [5] will kill DirectX 12 (i.e. AMD's Mantle on Linux & Android) !

    The Khronos Group is in a unique position, from where they could finally say to Microsoft (and, to a lesser extent, Apple): "Payback's a B*tch!"

    - OpenGL 5 will essentially be Mantle!
    This makes a LOT of sense, since Mantle was created to make the porting process from both the Xbox One and the PS4 easier for developers. And since it seems very clear that Microsoft is also trying to go this route with their Direct3D 12 API, Nvidia is forced to adapt Mantle for their hardware (it was already reported that Direct3D 12 will run on Fermi-class hardware and up). [How else do you think they would be able to come up with a completely new API in such a short amount of time?]

    This will have a few implications:

    - OpenGL 5 will be the first time that Mantle can be deployed cross-vendor & cross-platform!
    This will give an enormous time bonus, since the first DirectX 12 games are being targeted for Holiday 2015! So, if Nvidia & AMD come up with beta drivers for OpenGL 5 this year (we shouldn't have to wait for AMD to catch up this time, since it is their very own API to begin with!), developers could already target all the different platforms with ONE API this year, thus making the wait for Direct3D 12 unneccessary (since it will be like Mantle anyway).

    - All the mobile vendors will have to adapt Mantle, too!
    Nvidia will be able to run OpenGL 5 on their Tegra K1, therefore forcing all the other players to do so either on their hardware. Thus, once Android starts supporting this, there will be no need to target Apple's Metal API, since developers will be able to reach about the same speed with OpenGL 5 / Mantle!

    So, as one can very clearly see, OpenGL 5 will be the ONLY solution if you want to target as many platforms as possible, and if one is able to reach the same speed as one would get with targeting the proprietary API's on each platform, there will be no need any more to do so in the first place!

    I hope I could make my points clear enough and show you why OpenGL has a very bright future ahead!

  • #2
    I don't think there is going to be any relationship between OpenGL (whatever version this month's release will be) and Mantle.

    I also think that people have extraordinary over-the-boundaries opinions of Mantle, and I'm not sure where this even comes from. Apparently marketing is really effective.

    Whatever Khronos comes up with, they most certainly won't have the marketing edge to make their solution generate the kind of excitement that Mantle and Metal received.

    There are even people out there who were quite easily convinced that DX12 is based on Mantle.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by johnc View Post
      I don't think there is going to be any relationship between OpenGL (whatever version this month's release will be) and Mantle.

      I also think that people have extraordinary over-the-boundaries opinions of Mantle, and I'm not sure where this even comes from. Apparently marketing is really effective.

      Whatever Khronos comes up with, they most certainly won't have the marketing edge to make their solution generate the kind of excitement that Mantle and Metal received.

      There are even people out there who were quite easily convinced that DX12 is based on Mantle.
      I agree with every statement here. Also to point out, I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony did not accept the usage of Mantle for XB1 or PS4. They definitely should, but I'm pretty sure they didn't.

      Until I get some solid evidence nvidia will be supporting it, I don't think they ever will. Nvidia has too much pride to use something this big from someone else. AMD's efforts, to me, seem to be more of a proof-of-concept than an ambitious legitimate alternative API.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
        Also to point out, I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony did not accept the usage of Mantle for XB1 or PS4. They definitely should, but I'm pretty sure they didn't.
        If they use mantle and then the mantle specification will be openly accessible and there is even a complete implementation on PCs it will be much easier to write "emulators" with good performance. Can't have people playing their precious "exclusives" without buying their proprietary hardware.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ChrisXY View Post
          If they use mantle and then the mantle specification will be openly accessible and there is even a complete implementation on PCs it will be much easier to write "emulators" with good performance. Can't have people playing their precious "exclusives" without buying their proprietary hardware.
          An emulator will already be relatively easy. XB1 will be more difficult since it's based on Windows 8 (closed source) and uses that stupid ESRAM. But PS4 is based on BSD and while the APU appears to be more modified than xbox's, it shouldn't be TOO hard to emulate the changes they made. Since the architecture is x86, there should be very little performance loss, at least on an AMD-based system. I'm honestly not sure how emulators are made in the first place. Considering the performance and features of the Wii emulator, there's got to be some major trick.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
            I agree with every statement here. Also to point out, I'm pretty sure both MS and Sony did not accept the usage of Mantle for XB1 or PS4. They definitely should, but I'm pretty sure they didn't.
            Mantle makes no sense on consoles since they already have close to the metal APIs to begin with. They simply don't need it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
              Mantle makes no sense on consoles since they already have close to the metal APIs to begin with. They simply don't need it.
              Right, they don't need it. But AMD knows their hardware better than MS and Sony, and it'd be in the best interest of the developers to use something cross-platform. If anything, MS should accept Mantle since they have a developer issue.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Linuxxx View Post
                The Khronos Group is in a unique position, from where they could finally say to Microsoft (and, to a lesser extent, Apple): "Payback's a B*tch!"

                - OpenGL 5 will essentially be Mantle!
                This makes a LOT of sense, since Mantle was created to make the porting process from both the Xbox One and the PS4 easier for developers. And since it seems very clear that Microsoft is also trying to go this route with their Direct3D 12 API, Nvidia is forced to adapt Mantle for their hardware (it was already reported that Direct3D 12 will run on Fermi-class hardware and up). [How else do you think they would be able to come up with a completely new API in such a short amount of time?]

                This will have a few implications:

                - OpenGL 5 will be the first time that Mantle can be deployed cross-vendor & cross-platform!
                This will give an enormous time bonus, since the first DirectX 12 games are being targeted for Holiday 2015! So, if Nvidia & AMD come up with beta drivers for OpenGL 5 this year (we shouldn't have to wait for AMD to catch up this time, since it is their very own API to begin with!), developers could already target all the different platforms with ONE API this year, thus making the wait for Direct3D 12 unneccessary (since it will be like Mantle anyway).

                - All the mobile vendors will have to adapt Mantle, too!
                Nvidia will be able to run OpenGL 5 on their Tegra K1, therefore forcing all the other players to do so either on their hardware. Thus, once Android starts supporting this, there will be no need to target Apple's Metal API, since developers will be able to reach about the same speed with OpenGL 5 / Mantle!

                So, as one can very clearly see, OpenGL 5 will be the ONLY solution if you want to target as many platforms as possible, and if one is able to reach the same speed as one would get with targeting the proprietary API's on each platform, there will be no need any more to do so in the first place!

                I hope I could make my points clear enough and show you why OpenGL has a very bright future ahead!
                Reads like an Sci-Fi story or wish... certainly not based on any facts or sources.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Linuxxx View Post
                  The Khronos Group is in a unique position, from where they could finally say to Microsoft (and, to a lesser extent, Apple): "Payback's a B*tch!"
                  Great post Linda.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Linuxxx View Post
                    ...- All the mobile vendors will have to adapt Mantle, too!
                    Nvidia will be able to run OpenGL 5 on their Tegra K1, therefore forcing all the other players to do so either on their hardware....
                    No, game developers will target the widest range of hardware available, which means the lowest watermark, not the high watermark as you seem to suggest. Mobile devs will be on OpenGL ES 2.0 for a long time to come, because that's what just about every mobile chipset supports.

                    And if game devs focus on OpenGL ES, chipset vendors will carry on supporting that, perpetuating the current 'chicken and egg' situation. Sure, they'll support OpenGL ES 3, but until smartphone generations churn to the point where most people are carrying ES 3 hardware, devs will carry on targeting ES 2.

                    OpenGL ES is the standard on mobile, Mantle and/or OpenGL 5 won't even figure.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kaprikawn View Post
                      No, game developers will target the widest range of hardware available, which means the lowest watermark, not the high watermark as you seem to suggest. Mobile devs will be on OpenGL ES 2.0 for a long time to come, because that's what just about every mobile chipset supports.

                      And if game devs focus on OpenGL ES, chipset vendors will carry on supporting that, perpetuating the current 'chicken and egg' situation. Sure, they'll support OpenGL ES 3, but until smartphone generations churn to the point where most people are carrying ES 3 hardware, devs will carry on targeting ES 2.

                      OpenGL ES is the standard on mobile, Mantle and/or OpenGL 5 won't even figure.
                      As for OpenGL ES, I disagree. "on paper" support is already here. Real support, will require somebody using those code paths, to fail & report it to gpu vendors, so it will take time. (Esp. without direct Google involvement. Khronos test suite ... hard to see that working as well as WHQL..)

                      But OpenGL ES 3.0 is already here (on bigger number of devices then iDevieces combined!). OpenGL ES 3.1 is behind the hill top (but we will have to see if any updates to current drivers land.. As to date I can not find any updates on Khronos conformance list. :| )

                      So its not so gloomy for OpenGL ES 3.0/3.1 especially for apps that will benefit (anything but simple 2D over 3D).

                      That being said, hardcore gaming on ibm pc clones is still big business (and it can benefit from consoles, more then ever).
                      So Mantle/DX12/OpenGL "AZDO" are important here. (OpenGL "AZDO" -> OpenGL 4.2 + extensions, or any driver that currently support OpenGL 4.4, so its AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW)

                      Biggest show stopper for OGL AZDO is OSX (if writing OpenGL code then OSX is important target most of the time). Apple need to step up their game... which they may not want to, as Metal 2.0 would suite them better (but that would also "release" Linux/Windows OpenGL from reliance on Apple whim).

                      And Mantle and DX12 share many basic concepts. So if game engines are being designed for it, they will work well with DX12 when its available, because all system-wide decisions will be made beforehand.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by johnc View Post
                        I also think that people have extraordinary over-the-boundaries opinions of Mantle, and I'm not sure where this even comes from. Apparently marketing is really effective.
                        1. I had a Radeon x800, that was the last grafics card that u seen a differnce between this card and newer ones, because it supported not fully dx 9 I think (shader model 3.0) So u at best had no (dont remember the name a better version of bloom). some games just did not run at all.

                        Since then, there were exactly NO improvements in visuals in real games. yes u could draw more stuff because dx10 or dx11 are more efficient, so can draw cheap maybe 20 objects instead of 5, or u can draw higher textures. All other stuff were at best vendorspecific stuff, like the nvidia physic effects, or amds better faces technology (dont remember the names).

                        But even on that front microsoft failed, even planetside 2 has a dx11 render path, still a good quadcore cpu is not enough to play it fluently it has to be at least a Core i7 to have some fun.

                        So now in the past it was normal that u can buy a 100 euro cpu and a good grafic card to play games at least mid to high level if not better. Now this seemed to be not true anymore. It looked like future games need a Intel processor and amd cpus are just to bad even a midrange intel cpu would not be good enough it had to be a 250 euro core i7.

                        So Mantle solved that problem, sadly not for every title because not every game supports it but it shows that every game can run wihtout problems with a 100 euro cpu. If it does not its because the developers made it explizitly by design choice to not run on your hardware (because they did not use mantle).

                        Thats huge. And especialy as amd hardware fan, thats the difference between amd is obsolete complete for gaming or not.

                        And they delivered bigger improvements in speed than dx10 dx10.1 dx11.0 dx11.1 brought together.

                        Sorry thats the biggest event happend in gaming since 10 years. Even if mantle itself really would fail, its as example the death of directx, yes there is a dx12, but its not really dx12 its a more or less complete rewrite... its another thing, they call it again dx, cause of marketing and using the brand. But in reality its a complete rewrite.
                        Last edited by blackiwid; 08-06-2014, 12:31 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          its even bigger than that, it removes nearly all advantages of consoles.

                          one of the biggest argument for consoles were, u can buy a console once and then u can play games for several years and they keep getting looking better because the develoopers learn to use the hardware more efficiant.

                          Thats with mantle true for computers true, or at least it has the potential to be that way. If u mix that with some kind of gaming-pc versioning like steammachines that have some same hardware like in 1st gen steammachines minimum 8gb ram etc. u can define 3-4 default pc layouts for every 2 years or so u support and tune your games to this specs.

                          yes thats more profiles than u have on consoles but its more managable than supporting everything have no specification groups that many have the same.

                          Hope that makes sense, but it changes the hole gaming market very much, mantle, in respect to consoles and to intel amd and so on...

                          So thats why people are excited I think.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have to admit that I'm quite a bit more pessimistic. Graphics quality on consoles is way sub-par compared to what you can have on the PC, and console gamers just came to adjust themselves to lower resolutions, no AA, lower frame rates, etc. Developers target a much lower standard.

                            The only real advantage consoles have is that it's a single target platform so developers can target the one piece of known hardware.

                            It's not really evident that game developers even care about PC gaming, and even with Mantle. Their first target is the console market and then they "port" it over to PC, targeting the least common denominator (so DX9 and Intel integrated graphics) and call it a day.

                            Mantle isn't really going to change anything. It helps in a handful of CPU-limited scenarios... but so would OGL 4.x and DX12... and developers aren't going to use those because it takes them at least a decade to embrace new tech, so who cares?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here's a typical example:

                              Kepler has a nice feature set which we'll call "bindless multidraw indirect". Now Kepler has been out for what... three years now? And how many have spent hundreds on these video cards?

                              Can somebody count for me the number of games out there that take advantage of BMDI? Yeah... it's zero.

                              So people paid for a feature that isn't even used by game developers, and paid for GPU efficiency that's completely unused.


                              Look at how long the industry dragged its feet to adopt the new things in DX 11, or 11.1 or 11.2. OGL 4.x has been out for YEARS and there's not a single game using it.

                              The problem isn't the API here. It's not the GPU vendors either.

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