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Rich Geldreich: A Bad Catalyst GL Driver Is Bad For Everyone

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  • #31
    Wrong

    Err... WRONG.

    Nouveau. Seriously guys, stop talking without researching. Nouveau has implemented 99% of features that the NVIDIA binary driver has. The last thing needed is power management. And if you goto nouveau.freedekstop.org and bother to actually read the status matrix. You very quickly realise that they are on the verge of cracking this thing right open. I am willing to bet. and you can now quote me on this I would happily bet $50.00 AU that by July 2015. There is a high performance open source NVIDIA driver that supports OpenGL 4.2 if not 4.4. With power management support for all current generation (7XX series) graphics cards. NVIDIA's closed source binary driver is an engineering masterpiece sure. But they've had the thing ported to Solaris, BSD, Mac OSX, and Linux for the last decade. AMD/ATi haven't bothered to support all those platforms, and haven't bothered to maintain OpenGL at all. They are just reaping what they've sown. Intel is to be commended for starting from nothing, and in a short time developing a stable, feature-rich driver.

    ATI/AMD do not get a free pass on this.

    Apple didn't get a free pass when they made crap products, they bled out. Under Steve they started making good products and they picked up market share. There's a lesson there for ATi/AMD. Make good products. Don't make excuses. Don't make up bullshit. Just cut your past off, and focus on the future and making your product work.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sdar View Post
      read my post again:
      Read it again yourself.

      Originally posted by Sdar View Post
      Opengl: Open, works on almost everything (Operating systems and hardware from desktop to mobile devices) is as fast as Mantle on Nvidia cards but too slow on Intel and AMD hardware.
      It might not be what you meant, but it sounds a lot like you're comparing OpenGL to Mantle on nVidia, which shouldn't be possible to do yet.

      Comment


      • #33
        Running the numbers

        So I just ran the numbers on the Nouveau development efforts and here's my stats:

        The first set of numbers is everything listed on their status matrices, the numbers are broken down by chipset.

        Chipset NV03 NV04/05 NV10 NV20 NV30 NV40 NV50 NVC0 NVE0 NV110
        TOTAL TASKS 20 30 30 30 29 29 29 29 29 29
        REMAINING TO COMPLETE 2 5 8 5 8 8 9 9 9 16
        PERCENT REMAINING 10.00% 16.67% 26.67% 16.67% 27.59% 27.59% 31.03% 31.03% 31.03% 55.17%

        Chipset NV03 NV04/05 NV10 NV20 NV30 NV40 NV50 NVC0 NVE0 NV110
        PERCENT COMPLETED 90.00% 83.33% 73.33% 83.33% 72.41% 72.41% 68.97% 68.97% 68.97% 44.83%

        The second set of numbers are for things I use. I don't care about TV Out or TV Input as HDMI and DVI work correctly. OpenCL, or SLI on my home rig:

        Chipset NV03 NV04/05 NV10 NV20 NV30 NV40 NV50 NVC0 NVE0 NV110
        TOTAL TASKS 17 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27 27
        REMAINING TO COMPLETE 2 4 7 4 7 7 8 8 8 15
        PERCENT REMAINING 11.76% 14.81% 25.93% 14.81% 25.93% 25.93% 29.63% 29.63% 29.63% 55.56%

        Chipset NV03 NV04/05 NV10 NV20 NV30 NV40 NV50 NVC0 NVE0 NV110
        PERCENT COMPLETED 88.24% 85.19% 74.07% 85.19% 74.07% 74.07% 70.37% 70.37% 70.37% 44.44%

        As you can see the percentages are quite high, the interesting thing is the percentages are all consistently over 70% completed, except for the absolutely bleeding edge 750GTX series.
        even the 770GTX/Titan cards are 68-70% supported. (the bulk of outstanding tasks are power management related)
        I have subtracted off all tasks that are considered N/A, EXTFW, or BIOS, as the driver can support these features.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by DMJC View Post
          Err... WRONG.

          Nouveau. Seriously guys, stop talking without researching. Nouveau has implemented 99% of features that the NVIDIA binary driver has. The last thing needed is power management. And if you goto nouveau.freedekstop.org and bother to actually read the status matrix. You very quickly realise that they are on the verge of cracking this thing right open. I am willing to bet. and you can now quote me on this I would happily bet $50.00 AU that by July 2015. There is a high performance open source NVIDIA driver that supports OpenGL 4.2 if not 4.4. With power management support for all current generation (7XX series) graphics cards. NVIDIA's closed source binary driver is an engineering masterpiece sure. But they've had the thing ported to Solaris, BSD, Mac OSX, and Linux for the last decade. AMD/ATi haven't bothered to support all those platforms, and haven't bothered to maintain OpenGL at all. They are just reaping what they've sown. Intel is to be commended for starting from nothing, and in a short time developing a stable, feature-rich driver.

          ATI/AMD do not get a free pass on this.

          Apple didn't get a free pass when they made crap products, they bled out. Under Steve they started making good products and they picked up market share. There's a lesson there for ATi/AMD. Make good products. Don't make excuses. Don't make up bullshit. Just cut your past off, and focus on the future and making your product work.
          OpenGL level is a mesa thing, so making power management work on NV OSS driver will not magicaly implement the missing extensions and shader features in mesa ... don't bet, it's lost money for you ....

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by haplo602 View Post
            OpenGL level is a mesa thing, so making power management work on NV OSS driver will not magicaly implement the missing extensions and shader features in mesa ... don't bet, it's lost money for you ....
            You have to have faith my child.

            Comment


            • #36
              And now all your yadda yadda is WRONG!

              MANTLE is the new "opensource Engine"!

              Apple is switching from opengl to swift, I daubt that they will keep paralel the opengl support up to the level its good enough for highend games. Not to mention that Apple now is the worst Gaming-plattform (availibilty of games) of all.

              So what do we have now:

              D3D - Windows-ONLY
              SWIFT - Apple-ONLY
              OPENGL - bad implemations on windows on linux and on macosx best implementation I think windows, or is the opengl driver from catalyst worse than in windows? I also thought the Intel-opengl stack is faster in windows?

              MANTLE - Windows and Linux support OPEN API better than opengl Plattform independend (who cares about macosx?) the api itself vendor-independend, aka open for other vendors. Not ot mention full Konsole Support.


              I think Mantle is the winner!!!

              And the "only support for newer gpus thing is also no real argument against mantle" it only slows down the migration till opengl gets irrelevant for gaming.



              Maybe I am to optimistic but all developer hate opengl and all love Mantle they will desite too, if developers complain by nvidia or have less good support for their hardware at some point, nvidia will fast implement the open Mantle API I am shure.

              The only real Problem I see is Intel, but they dont really have big advantage if they dont, yes u dont need so good cpus with mantle, but if opengl would win, that would happen in opengl too or in directx so that cpus gets less important for gaming is a thing coming no matter what intel does.


              At least I hope Mantle cleans up the current opengl-mess.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                And now all your yadda yadda is WRONG!

                MANTLE is the new "opensource Engine"!

                Apple is switching from opengl to swift, I daubt that they will keep paralel the opengl support up to the level its good enough for highend games. Not to mention that Apple now is the worst Gaming-plattform (availibilty of games) of all.

                So what do we have now:

                D3D - Windows-ONLY
                SWIFT - Apple-ONLY
                OPENGL - bad implemations on windows on linux and on macosx best implementation I think windows, or is the opengl driver from catalyst worse than in windows? I also thought the Intel-opengl stack is faster in windows?

                MANTLE - Windows and Linux support OPEN API better than opengl Plattform independend (who cares about macosx?) the api itself vendor-independend, aka open for other vendors. Not ot mention full Konsole Support.


                I think Mantle is the winner!!!

                And the "only support for newer gpus thing is also no real argument against mantle" it only slows down the migration till opengl gets irrelevant for gaming.



                Maybe I am to optimistic but all developer hate opengl and all love Mantle they will desite too, if developers complain by nvidia or have less good support for their hardware at some point, nvidia will fast implement the open Mantle API I am shure.

                The only real Problem I see is Intel, but they dont really have big advantage if they dont, yes u dont need so good cpus with mantle, but if opengl would win, that would happen in opengl too or in directx so that cpus gets less important for gaming is a thing coming no matter what intel does.


                At least I hope Mantle cleans up the current opengl-mess.
                There is no way NVIDIA, Intel, PowerVR, or Qualcomm use Mantle, so no, Mantle looses. With the inevitable demise of OGL, we're going back to vendor specific API's, which is what i was afraid Mantle was going to cause.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
                  There is no way NVIDIA, Intel, PowerVR, or Qualcomm use Mantle, so no, Mantle looses. With the inevitable demise of OGL, we're going back to vendor specific API's, which is what i was afraid Mantle was going to cause.
                  I dont care much about what happens but I am interested in which fault it is, if Nvidia will not use Mantle its their fault one reason more to not buy em.

                  And btw I find that not so impossible that Intel goes mantle, they support DX a windows only api, so why the hell would they not support a plattform-independend better api?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                    [Mentions of swift]
                    MANTLE - Windows and Linux support OPEN API better than opengl Plattform independend (who cares about macosx?) the api itself vendor-independend, aka open for other vendors. Not ot mention full Konsole Support.
                    Swift is Apple's new programming language, I believe you meant Metal.
                    Konsole is KDE's windowed terminal, did you really mean to say that or perhaps "console"?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                      MANTLE - Windows and Linux support OPEN API better than opengl Plattform independend (who cares about macosx?) the api itself vendor-independend, aka open for other vendors. Not ot mention full Konsole Support.
                      Too many assumptions in this statement. At this point, Mantle is still Windows only and vendor dependent. Even if Mantle becomes vendor independent it's still not an open standard, i.e. AMD develops newer versions of it behind closed doors in order to stay ahead of the curve. Other vendors will likely prefer to improve OpenGL rather than tailing AMD in terms of release dates.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by sarmad View Post
                        Too many assumptions in this statement.
                        "I HAVE A DREAM..."...that we can drink out of our toilets and that Mantle becomes the new OS-Independend Standard..."

                        I just say Opengl is sucky land, everybody hates it like hell, I dont programm opengl so I dont care to much, but 3d-Developers seem to do, at some point Opengl has to die. It evolves to slow, even DX gets a complete Restart now. And Opengl is no longer primary 3d engine under macosx. So you think opengl as a more or less linux-only library in the long run is a good alternative?

                        Its good enough for 3d-Desktop or Map-apps, but for game-development it did die after Quake3 or so 10 years ago. People only use it when the want really hard something that runs under linux and because there is nothing else under linux, but all AAA Titel are not developed in Opengl, it has maybe a reason.
                        Last edited by blackiwid; 06-18-2014, 08:17 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                          I just say Opengl is sucky land, everybody hates it like hell, I dont programm opengl so I dont care to much, but 3d-Developers seem to do, at some point Opengl has to die.
                          You don't develop with OpenGL, but still you represent absolutely everybody who does? Sure, professionals have criticised it, but only uninformed people like you are calling for it's death. OpenGL is still the only existing cross-platform 3D graphics api supported by all major hardware vendors.

                          Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                          And Opengl is no longer primary 3d engine under macosx.
                          Yes it is, unless Metal sprouted support for it last night. Yesterday it only supported IOS on specific ARM chipsets.

                          Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                          So you think opengl as a more or less linux-only library in the long run is a good alternative?
                          MS or Apple simply cannot drop OpenGL support. I won't bother explaining why, as it should be obvious. And no API controlled by a single company will be able to replace it entirely.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tuubi View Post
                            You don't develop with OpenGL, but still you represent absolutely everybody who does? Sure, professionals have criticised it, but only uninformed people like you are calling for it's death. OpenGL is still the only existing cross-platform 3D graphics api supported by all major hardware vendors.
                            I never said that I represent every opengl developer, I just said that most feedback about opengl is negative, even on people using opengl, all the 90% directx people (I talk about game developers or engine developers) have a even more clear opinion against opengl, else why would all engine companies of better engines chose directx as their api? opengl was faster, and still nearly no engine used by AAA games used it. Even id soft moved away from it.

                            Originally posted by tuubi View Post
                            Yes it is, unless Metal sprouted support for it last night. Yesterday it only supported IOS on specific ARM chipsets.
                            k I did not know that.


                            Originally posted by tuubi View Post
                            MS or Apple simply cannot drop OpenGL support. I won't bother explaining why, as it should be obvious. And no API controlled by a single company will be able to replace it entirely.
                            That with the controll seems to be changing. Of course keep all closed up forever it will not happen. But I am optimistic about it. But we will see in the future.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tuubi View Post
                              You don't develop with OpenGL, but still you represent absolutely everybody who does? Sure, professionals have criticised it, but only uninformed people like you are calling for it's death. OpenGL is still the only existing cross-platform 3D graphics api supported by all major hardware vendors.
                              I, on the other hand, have developed with both OpenGL and D3D.

                              The point is that just being "the only existing cross-platform 3D graphics api supported by all major hardware vendors" is no longer good enough. Most game studios are already in multiple-API land; they use D3D on Windows and the proprietary console APIs on console platforms, and if they're supporting both this-gen and last-gen that's 5 different APIs already supported by an engine.

                              This is a solved problem. Game studios have discovered that not having a single standard API that works on all of their target platforms is not actually that big a deal. OpenGL offers a solution to a problem that doesn't even exist.

                              So once you discard that as a reason to prefer OpenGL, what reasons are you actually left with? When you're no longer bound to OpenGL because you've accepted that you're already in multiple-API land anyway, you can begin to examine what else it offers you with a more critical gaze. And that's when the hard reality starts to come out: OpenGL is actually kinda crap.

                              Now, there's still a lot to like in the API, but there's also a lot of badly broken thinking behind it's design, and the apparent unwillingness of the ARB to address the real problems that people face when actually using it only makes things worse. Recent OpenGL developments tend to remind me of the death-throes of 3DFX more than anything else. Big promises, failure to deliver, going off and doing it's own weird thing rather than being compatible with where the industry as a whole is moving to. AZDO is neat, but it's almost completely orthogonal to the design of a renderer to maximize performance on any other API.

                              Because of all of this, OpenGL in it's current incarnation needs to die. Or at least be feature-frozen and re-implemented as a pure-software layer on top of something else. Because it's no longer serving the purpose for which it was originally designed, and the bad habit in certain quarters of abandoning all critical perspective and thinking it's awesome just because it runs on Unix-alikes, while at the same time ignoring the genuine flaws in it, will only make that death more protracted and messy than it needs to be.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jimmy Shelter View Post

                                Because of all of this, OpenGL in it's current incarnation needs to die. Or at least be feature-frozen and re-implemented as a pure-software layer on top of something else. Because it's no longer serving the purpose for which it was originally designed, and the bad habit in certain quarters of abandoning all critical perspective and thinking it's awesome just because it runs on Unix-alikes, while at the same time ignoring the genuine flaws in it, will only make that death more protracted and messy than it needs to be.
                                The positive Aspect on this, is that it only can die under linux, and beeing replaced with something else, is with a api thats implemented in free drivers, like the intel one. We know that most indie game developers who support linux also target mesa. And except some maybe extremly high demanding farcry 20 game that is not so hardware-hungry u have to target also mesa and igps. So I am very optimistic that it will not only come for fglrx but also for mesa. AMD called this api now "opensource api" so I belive it will come.

                                Of course if it would be amd blob only it would not be more than a gimmik in 2-3 games here and there. So opengl feature right now is not so much the multi-os support but the full linux-drivers support. Take that away and for gaming most will move away I guess

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