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  • #31
    Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
    well it seems like DX12 is ripoff Mantle https://twitter.com/repi/status/446787503953944576
    Not according to NVIDIA:

    http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/directx-12/

    Speaking to a crowd of about 300 developers and press, Anuj Gosalia, development manager of DirectX at Microsoft, described DX12 as the joint effort of hardware vendors, game developers and his team. Our work with Microsoft on DirectX 12 began more than four years ago with discussions about reducing resource overhead. For the past year, NVIDIA has been working closely with the DirectX team to deliver a working design and implementation of DX12 at GDC. - See more at: http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03....N3kFzj2v.dpuf
    Given how long DX12 has been cooking, and knowing AMD would be very well aware of what MSFT was doing, AMD's previous "There will be no DX12" comments and the release of Mantle suddenly has a bit of a new spin. Rather then DX12 ripping of Mantle, is the REVERSE case true; did AMD rip of DX12, release part of it early, and try to gain a market edge ahead of NVIDIA?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by hajj_3 View Post
      Intel and Nvidia have pledged support for DX12. AMD hasn't made any announcements.
      Yes they are:
      http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases...2014mar20.aspx

      So gcn based graphics cards support dx12, from nvidia side all dx11 cards will support dx12 api(don't really know or care how feature complete the support are). Best thing is opengl has already benefits that will be part of d3d12 in 2015.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by erendorn View Post
        Do you really think a game would be released for a platform where only one card manufacturer would be supported? AMD porting mantle to Linux is of zero use with respect to having Frosbite games on Linux as long as Frosbite does not support some other API available for Intel and Nvidia GPU on Linux (that, or Intel and Nvidia support of mantle on Linux, which might not happen just tomorrow).
        Considering the corporate culture of Nvidia, they'll come up with yet another propietary single-vendor API. Mantle will never be supported by Nvidia.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
          Given how long DX12 has been cooking, and knowing AMD would be very well aware of what MSFT was doing, AMD's previous "There will be no DX12" comments and the release of Mantle suddenly has a bit of a new spin. Rather then DX12 ripping of Mantle, is the REVERSE case true; did AMD rip of DX12, release part of it early, and try to gain a market edge ahead of NVIDIA?
          Doubt it, year a go amd's vice president said that there won't be dx12, which microsoft shot down fast saying there will be.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by newwen View Post
            Considering the corporate culture of Nvidia, they'll come up with yet another propietary single-vendor API. Mantle will never be supported by Nvidia.
            Nah nvidia has nvapi and gameworks for optimizing. But for rendering don't think they will release yet another api, they already are part of the development in both opengl and d3d(and so is amd,intel).

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            • #36
              Originally posted by gamerk2 View Post
              Not according to NVIDIA:
              Given how long DX12 has been cooking, and knowing AMD would be very well aware of what MSFT was doing, AMD's previous "There will be no DX12" comments and the release of Mantle suddenly has a bit of a new spin. Rather then DX12 ripping of Mantle, is the REVERSE case true; did AMD rip of DX12, release part of it early, and try to gain a market edge ahead of NVIDIA?
              that discusion was in AMD four yeas ago too http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/gra...l-to-directx/1 they don't have anything. otherwise they would release it this year and not next. DX12 is just marketing response from microsoft so they don't lose grip on graphics API.
              Last edited by AnonymousCoward; 03-21-2014, 10:35 AM.

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              • #37
                Vaporware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporw...y_announcement
                DX12 is surely it.

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                • #38
                  My biggest beef with OpenGL is all the global state. I wish they would do another deprecation round and throw it all out and then make OpenGL 5 fully multi-threaded. Get rid of all that glBindxxx() crap!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shmerl View Post
                    Pretty much. Khronos has been talking about reducing overhead since 2007

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Staffan View Post
                      My biggest beef with OpenGL is all the global state. I wish they would do another deprecation round and throw it all out and then make OpenGL 5 fully multi-threaded. Get rid of all that glBindxxx() crap!
                      You should look at the slides on how to avoid using bind (in loops) to help improve the performance. If you have been using bind in every draw loop you have been doing it wrong.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by justmy2cents View Post
                        there is no point in mantle on linux. right now, their opengl is still subpar and i would prefer them fixing that 1st and then add another unfinished layer. adding subpar mantle which would be probably beta until 2019 would just add to bugs on amd unless you prefer having buggy gl+beta mantle
                        Fortunately for us all, you don't determine priorities for AMD and Game Developers. Sorry, but the resources for OpenGL and Mantle will continue moving forward at what financially best suits AMD, not you.

                        That's good because OpenGL improvements in Mesa for AMD, Nvidia, Intel aren't making those three big bucks. Gaming is making AMD and Nvidia money and Intel can afford to dump money down a rat hole slowly improving OpenGL for Mesa. They're competing for other markets.

                        Your 2019 is non-factual hogwash. Game Devs dictate when Mantle is ready for Linux and the more they move to Linux the more resources will be getting Mantle optimized for Non-Windows platforms.

                        Even OS X will help considerably getting Mantle ported more rapidly, now with AMD's expansion into Apple hardware.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tuke81 View Post
                          Doubt it, year a go amd's vice president said that there won't be dx12, which microsoft shot down fast saying there will be.
                          DirectX12 is Mantle+DirectX11.2.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Silverthorn View Post
                            If you have been using bind in every draw loop you have been doing it wrong.
                            Not really, depends on what you are doing of course. I've only skimmed it, but the fast stuff in the slides seems to need very recent OpenGL.

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                            • #44
                              We can be happy to get any improvements at all with the duopoly of AMD and Nvidia. Or do you think without mantle there would be any serious push for streamlining OGL and D3D?

                              The basic concept of mantle is looking really really nice.
                              No stupid driver threads... no stupid guessing of the driver what you want.... no stupid double and triple copying of data just to get it from A to B... and so on...
                              But it looks so different from OGL/D3D that the required changes would essential make them into new APIs. So why not give it a new name then? Like for example: mantle.

                              People not only want a thin API for easy of use/having control. They also want it because big bloated drivers are buggy... and this is not only the case for AMD! Like every new AAA Game title needs a driver upgrade.
                              Thin APIs would be easier to implement as oss driver, too!

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Kraut View Post
                                We can be happy to get any improvements at all with the duopoly of AMD and Nvidia. Or do you think without mantle there would be any serious push for streamlining OGL and D3D?
                                Considering these OGL improvements have been available in some stages for years before Mantle was even announced, and apparently DX12 has been in design for years as well, I don't think it has anything to do with Mantle. The fact is, the APIs are getting updates to reflect the improvements made by the duopoly at the hardware level. Of course in the case of OGL this is handled initially with vendor extensions.

                                The basic concept of mantle is looking really really nice.
                                No stupid driver threads... no stupid guessing of the driver what you want.... no stupid double and triple copying of data just to get it from A to B... and so on...
                                But it looks so different from OGL/D3D that the required changes would essential make them into new APIs. So why not give it a new name then? Like for example: mantle.

                                People not only want a thin API for easy of use/having control. They also want it because big bloated drivers are buggy... and this is not only the case for AMD! Like every new AAA Game title needs a driver upgrade.
                                Thin APIs would be easier to implement as oss driver, too!
                                If AMD's engineering department was merely half as effective as their marketing department, they would own the GPU market by a significant margin.

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