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  • #31
    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
    ...
    AMD has its own Development Forums where you can ask.

    EDIT: The radeon Driver is not an option for many users. He is compared to fglrx slow, higher power consumption, no video acceleration ( the gallium3d drivers need the shaders i cant believe that an c-50/c-60 has enough shader power for that )
    Last edited by Nille; 02-21-2012, 03:30 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by AJenbo View Post
      I prefer the radeon driver but on my laptop I have had to switch to the blob to keep save power. And for gaming the open driver is to slow, be it wine or not, the open driver can even be a bit slow running my desktop in certen situations.
      The Radeon open source driver has full support for power management.

      http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature#...gement_Options

      The Radeon open source driver is not slow, but I can't speak for Wine. Because the Wine project goes it alone and does not use the Gallium3D state tracker for Direct3D 10/11, Wine may not work properly with the open source Radeon driver.

      The Radeon open source driver performs very well indeed for running desktop software, so much so that it is a far better option than running fglrx.
      Last edited by hal2k1; 02-21-2012, 03:57 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
        And Xrender, in turn, uses the GPU hardware acceleration fratures exposed by the graphics driver.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Rendering_Extension
        Yes, but it is more the 2D features of the driver. OSS radeon is reportedly better in this than fglrx.

        Still I do not know how you got 60fps I get 24 on HD 4350. Your CPU may help there.

        Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
        Mozilla are eventually going to switch to their own graphics canvas called Azure.

        http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=OTcxNQ
        Azure will use the GPU hardware acceleration via OpenGL.
        All being well, Azure will be even faster in using the GPU & driver via OpenGL that Cairo was in using the GPU & driver via Xrender.
        Well, they are adding 'skia' library too so who knows where all this will finally lead on Linux

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        • #34
          Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
          Because the Wine project goes it alone and does not use the Gallium3D state tracker for Direct3D 10/11, Wine may not work properly with the open source Radeon driver.
          I'm not sure anyone even ever tested that the D3D state tracker worked on the radeon drivers. It's developer was an nouveau developer, and i think he was basically the only one who ever used it at all.

          Meanwhile, a wine developer has helped out a bit at times with the r600g driver, and the project has a lot of good reasons for not being able to switch away from using standard OpenGL. So I feel like you're being very unfair and misleading here.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
            The Radeon open source driver has full support for power management.

            http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature#...gement_Options

            The Radeon open source driver is not slow, but I can't speak for Wine. Because the Wine project goes it alone and does not use the Gallium3D state tracker for Direct3D 10/11, Wine may not work properly with the open source Radeon driver.

            The Radeon open source driver performs very well indeed for running desktop software, so much so that it is a far better option than running fglrx.
            Power managment does not work as well as it does with fglrx and is rather manual.
            Wine works fine with the open driveres, but it's slower and not only with DX games. Even native games are significanly slower when running the open driver then with the blob. Multiple articles on Phoronix will testify to this so i don't see why we are even debating this unless i'm just feeding a trole.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by aceman View Post
              Yes, but it is more the 2D features of the driver. OSS radeon is reportedly better in this than fglrx.
              Yes, and it is primarily 2D performance that determines the performance of desktop software.

              Still I do not know how you got 60fps I get 24 on HD 4350. Your CPU may help there.
              According to the most recent Graphics Card Hierarchy chart I found:

              http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ew,3107-7.html

              ... my ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5450 GPU should have about the same performance as your HD 4350. They are on the same tier of the hierarchy chart, as is the top of the Intel range in the Intel HD Graphics 3000. Since my HD 5450 and the Intel HD Graphics 3000 both achieve 60+ fps, so too should your system. Are you running Mesa 8 and KDE 4.8 (as used in Kubuntu Precise Pangolin Alpha)? Apparently this gives a very substantial performance improvement over previous versions of the Linux graphics stack.
              Last edited by hal2k1; 02-21-2012, 04:29 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by aceman View Post
                Yes, but it is more the 2D features of the driver. OSS radeon is reportedly better in this than fglrx.

                Still I do not know how you got 60fps I get 24 on HD 4350. Your CPU may help there.


                Well, they are adding 'skia' library too so who knows where all this will finally lead on Linux
                I believe Skia support should already be working (in canvas only) in nightlies. It's off by default and still experimental, but you can enable by setting gfx.canvas.azure.enabled

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                  I'm not sure anyone even ever tested that the D3D state tracker worked on the radeon drivers. It's developer was an nouveau developer, and i think he was basically the only one who ever used it at all.
                  Your right it only works on Nouveau (and only on Femi afaik), to makie it work driverside IR code is needed witch is a bit hackish compared to other state trackers.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
                    I'm not sure anyone even ever tested that the D3D state tracker worked on the radeon drivers. It's developer was an nouveau developer, and i think he was basically the only one who ever used it at all.

                    Meanwhile, a wine developer has helped out a bit at times with the r600g driver, and the project has a lot of good reasons for not being able to switch away from using standard OpenGL. So I feel like you're being very unfair and misleading here.
                    OK, so why does it apparently get poor performance compared to other software for Linux?

                    Note that I am going on hearsay here, I don't use Wine myself, because I use my computers for computing, not gaming.

                    Either someone is unfairly bashing the open source drivers by falsely reporting that they are slow with Wine, or or they are reporting it correctly and Wine is indeed buggy/slow with the open source drivers (compared to native Linux games) but not with fglrx.

                    So which is it?
                    Last edited by hal2k1; 02-21-2012, 04:37 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Some people find that XRender performs better than OpenGL, while others find the opposite. I think I have experienced both situations depending on my software configuration. This is while running a GTX 275, which is hardly legacy hardware.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
                        OK, so why does it apparently get poor performance compared to other software for Linux?

                        Note that I am going on hearsay here, I don't use Wine myself, because I use my computers for computing, not gaming.

                        Either someone is unfairly bashing the open source drivers by falsely reporting that they are slow with Wine, or or they are reporting it correctly and Wine is indeed buggy/slow with the open source drivers (compared to native Linux games) but not with fglrx.

                        So which is it?
                        I think you might have missed the point. Games running threw Wine are a lot more demanding then most native applications (though some preformance is lost doing translation in Wine). That is why you need high preformence when running games in Wine. The case is the same when running demanding games nativly:

                        http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...r300r600&num=4

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
                          OK, so why does it apparently get poor performance compared to other software for Linux?

                          Note that I am going on hearsay here, I don't use Wine myself, because I use my computers for computing, not gaming.

                          Either someone is unfairly bashing the open source drivers by falsely reporting that they are slow with Wine, or or they are reporting it correctly and Wine is indeed buggy/slow with the open source drivers (compared to native Linux games) but not with fglrx.

                          So which is it?
                          Let's be honest. The OSS drivers are slow when it comes to gaming. Most people won't notice this in non-WINE situations because there isn't much out there for Linux that actually stresses the video cards. But run the Unigine games, or other heavy GPU apps and you will see a large performance difference between the binary drivers and the mesa ones. The mesa devs won't even deny this - they know full well they have a long way to go to catch up with the proprietary drivers. Most linux native games aren't GPU limited, and so it really doesn't matter that the OSS drivers are slower because it's still way over 60fps and no one can tell the difference.

                          Second, Wine was built for a decade based on the nvidia driver. Even though steps have been taken to work on other drivers, it shouldn't be surprising that there are still occasionally bugs/issues that pop up on other drivers that the code wasn't originally designed for. I don't believe this is still a major issue, but it can popup from time to time.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
                            ... my ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5450 GPU should have about the same performance as your HD 4350. They are on the same tier of the hierarchy chart, as is the top of the Intel range in the Intel HD Graphics 3000. Since my HD 5450 and the Intel HD Graphics 3000 both achieve 60+ fps, so too should your system. Are you running Mesa 8 and KDE 4.8 (as used in Kubuntu Precise Pangolin Alpha)? Apparently this gives a very substantial performance improvement over previous versions of the Linux graphics stack.
                            I am using KDE3! With basic compositing in kwin like transparency and shadows, nothing else But I can try to disable that. I don't think Mesa 8 has any effect (but I am using it), as we concluded FF is not using OpenGL. I am on the latest radeon driver. But my X server is quite old (like 1.9), maybe that is the problem. I still think your CPU makes it faster for you (I suppose you also see FF using 100% of your CPU core) as I only have a 3Ghz Phenom II 960.
                            What version of Firefox have you tested there?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by AJenbo View Post
                              Power managment does not work as well as it does with fglrx and is rather manual.
                              Wine works fine with the open driveres, but it's slower and not only with DX games. Even native games are significanly slower when running the open driver then with the blob. Multiple articles on Phoronix will testify to this so i don't see why we are even debating this unless i'm just feeding a trole.
                              This is all very, very dynamic.

                              There are no articles yet on Phoronix, as far as I am aware, which report the performance of Mesa 8 and the OpenGL 3 milestone (for Intel and AMD/ATI GPUs) which was released in January this year. This release of the Linux graphics stack has very significant performance improvements over previous releases.

                              Then again, there are still other very significant performance improvements for the Radeon open source drivers in the form of 2D tiling support which landed after the release of Mesa 8,

                              http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1MjY

                              ... and still other improvement which are yet to be finished in the form of HiZ

                              http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1NTE

                              Perhaps by the release of Mesa 8.1 later this year the performance gap between the Radeon open source drivers and fglrx will have all but disappeared.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by aceman View Post
                                I am using KDE3! With basic compositing in kwin like transparency and shadows, nothing else But I can try to disable that. I don't think Mesa 8 has any effect (but I am using it), as we concluded FF is not using OpenGL. I am on the latest radeon driver. But my X server is quite old (like 1.9), maybe that is the problem. I still think your CPU makes it faster for you (I suppose you also see FF using 100% of your CPU core) as I only have a 3Ghz Phenom II 960.
                                What version of Firefox have you tested there?
                                According to Help ==> Troubleshooting Infromation:

                                Name: Firefox
                                Version: 11.0
                                User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux x86_64; rv:11.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/11.0

                                According to the System Monitor, under the KDE SC 4.8 desktop Firefox 11 uses 0% CPU when idle (probably due to rounding error) as I type these very characters in this reply window.

                                I can momentarily get it up to 3% CPU by using the mouse wheel to rapidly scroll up and down.
                                Last edited by hal2k1; 02-21-2012, 05:03 AM.

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