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A Bounty For Gallium3D On Haiku OS

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
    I heard it through the grapvein "reliable sources" that they though the gallium driver could get to that performance level and AMD seemed pretty commited to getting it there. I think the largest problem with getting help from nvidia and AMD on graphics drivers is the amount of Microsoft IP in those drivers that they aren't willing to discuss. They likely can't tell us how much IP is there.

    Lets put it this way. the software spec is and has been driving the hardware for about a decade now.

    Would be nice if someone who was capable would steup and name that price.
    What price is that ?

    Just a reminder, the 70% number (actually 60-70% IIRC) of fglrx performance on average was an estimate our architects came up with based on the estimated size & skill level of the driver development community (small group but very good individually) and the assumption that developers would be willing to work on general "make the driver more efficient" performance optimizations but not the kind of competitive performance tuning you get in a proprietary driver that shares code (and performance work) across multiple OSes. Nothing to do with release of IP or "some other company's secrets".

    The developers seem to be approaching that point already with the 300g driver, based on the last round of benchmarks Michael published.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by bridgman View Post
      What price is that ?

      Just a reminder, the 70% number (actually 60-70% IIRC) of fglrx performance on average was an estimate our architects came up with based on the estimated size & skill level of the driver development community (small group but very good individually) and the assumption that developers would be willing to work on general "make the driver more efficient" performance optimizations but not the kind of competitive performance tuning you get in a proprietary driver that shares code (and performance work) across multiple OSes. Nothing to do with release of IP or "some other company's secrets".

      The developers seem to be approaching that point already with the 300g driver, based on the last round of benchmarks Michael published.

      the haikuware and haiku community has rasied $2000 us dollars to get a gallium port. If you interested feel free to grab it.

      anyways I had heard higher and lower estimates but 70-80% of the closed driver was a number I've have heard alot.

      If they do better great, if they get 68% I won't cry over it.

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      • #63
        BTW haiku already has a functional mesa soft rednerer I think its up to very recent version.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
          BTW haiku already has a functional mesa soft rednerer I think its up to very recent version.
          If you check out the Haiku branches repository, you will also see that Haiku has a working Gallium port. What is missing is driver access to native hardware, which is what Gallium3D will bring. For the company I work, we evaluated a few open source platforms (including Haiku), but decided to not go the Gallium3D route and instead rely on manufacturer supplied proprietary 3D drivers. At the end of the day, performance is what mattered, and Gallium doesn't deliver.

          For Haiku, I eventually expect to see native drivers from nVidia and AMD. Gallium3D is only an interim solution. I wouldn't be suprised to see both reach the market at the same time.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Zenja View Post
            If you check out the Haiku branches repository, you will also see that Haiku has a working Gallium port. What is missing is driver access to native hardware, which is what Gallium3D will bring.
            Right, the part that needs to be ported is the whole KMS infrastructure in the kernel, and memory manager. The userspace Mesa code should run pretty much anywhere.

            For the company I work, we evaluated a few open source platforms (including Haiku), but decided to not go the Gallium3D route and instead rely on manufacturer supplied proprietary 3D drivers. At the end of the day, performance is what mattered, and Gallium doesn't deliver.
            Just to clarify, i think most developers believe that the bottleneck lies in the underlying Mesa code, and that the Gallium API on top of that isn't that bad.

            For Haiku, I eventually expect to see native drivers from nVidia and AMD. Gallium3D is only an interim solution. I wouldn't be suprised to see both reach the market at the same time.
            We'll see. Haiku is still just a hobbyist OS right now, and I think it's got a long way to go before NVidia or AMD take it seriously. The main reason they support Linux is because of all the professional CAD/etc. users out there, which Haiku doesn't have and i don't see them getting anytime soon.

            But hey, best of luck. Who knows, i could be wrong.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
              gallium wasn't created specifically for linux. It was designed as a multi OS hardware driver API, point of fact.
              Point of fact is that Gallium was developed by Tungsten Graphics with the prime platform being Linux. Just because it's cross platform doesn't mean it's not because of Linux that it even exists. Many technologies originating in Linux are cross platform in the hope they will be used elsewhere too. This isn't Microsoft, after all.

              Another point of fact is that you're not prepared to give credit where credit is due.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                Point of fact is that Gallium was developed by Tungsten Graphics with the prime platform being Linux. Just because it's cross platform doesn't mean it's not because of Linux that it even exists. Many technologies originating in Linux are cross platform in the hope they will be used elsewhere too. This isn't Microsoft, after all.

                Another point of fact is that you're not prepared to give credit where credit is due.
                Well considering that tungsten graphics isn't calling it a linux API with cross platform capability is very telling. They might be developing on linux where there is a need, but obviously its not the only one. I can think of dedicated embeeded Operating systems that need gallium alot more then linux does

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                  Well considering that tungsten graphics isn't calling it a linux API with cross platform capability is very telling. They might be developing on linux where there is a need, but obviously its not the only one. I can think of dedicated embeeded Operating systems that need gallium alot more then linux does
                  I can think of a lot of targets too, but I can't think of a good reason why whatever you do, you try to avoid giving Linux any form of credit.

                  You just look like an average, biased Linux hater to me. Feel free to prove me wrong though

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                    I can think of a lot of targets too, but I can't think of a good reason why whatever you do, you try to avoid giving Linux any form of credit.

                    You just look like an average, biased Linux hater to me. Feel free to prove me wrong though

                    Becuase the world exsited before linux and it will go on when its gone. A group of developers and a corporate sponsor wanted a cross platform OS agnostic design based on the work in mesa.

                    Its not really hard to see the motivation there.

                    I am not a linux hater, I am pragmatic and honest. Some people can't handle that.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                      Becuase the world exsited before linux and it will go on when its gone.
                      That's true for all things. But you think that's no reason to acknowledge their contributions. Says a lot about your bias.

                      A group of developers and a corporate sponsor wanted a cross platform OS agnostic design based on the work in mesa.
                      With primary contributions and initial design coming from Linux developers.

                      Its not really hard to see the motivation there.
                      It's also not really hard to see yours.

                      I am not a linux hater, I am pragmatic and honest. Some people can't handle that.
                      Honest is one thing you're definitely not.

                      Enough said. You've made your point.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                        That's true for all things. But you think that's no reason to acknowledge their contributions. Says a lot about your bias.


                        With primary contributions and initial design coming from Linux developers.


                        It's also not really hard to see yours.


                        Honest is one thing you're definitely not.

                        Enough said. You've made your point.
                        Mesa was a fall back software library that was again portable.

                        your confusing who may have worked on it " like linux developers" with there are lot of other developers as well that the linux developers emulated or reverse engineered.

                        All ideas flow to the best form possiable over time.

                        Same reason most modern cars look similar, theres a certain aerodynamic envelope thats viable for fuel efficiency.

                        So how many of those linux developers applied knowledge they learned somewhere else or even may have been paid to code for another project.

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                        • #72
                          truthfully linux is made from table scraps. All the best developers are generally working at large corporations getting big fat checks. Linux is the left overs and its built on borrowed and deprecated technologys.

                          So take what you will but linux really doesn't innovate, it emulates. the kernel itself was driven by the desire to have a free version of unix.

                          Thats reality.

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                          • #73
                            Haiku developers don't get one thing: In order to get fine hardware support, they need to port these components:
                            - Linux kernel DRM (direct rendering manager)
                            - Mesa & Gallium3D
                            - some drivers need libdrm

                            Gallium3D hardware drivers are currently dependent on kernel DRM (as are any other Mesa drivers which need KMS) and I think Haiku developers have no chances to get hardware acceleration without it. They have to port everything.

                            And then they would probably need a full-time developer to maintain that beast.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                              truthfully linux is made from table scraps. All the best developers are generally working at large corporations getting big fat checks. Linux is the left overs and its built on borrowed and deprecated technologys.

                              So take what you will but linux really doesn't innovate, it emulates. the kernel itself was driven by the desire to have a free version of unix.

                              Thats reality.
                              LOL. This from the Haiku guy. Does it seem to anyone else that a lot of trolls have popped up on Phoronix over the last few weeks, or is it just me?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Thatguy View Post
                                truthfully linux is made from table scraps. All the best developers are generally working at large corporations getting big fat checks. Linux is the left overs and its built on borrowed and deprecated technologys.

                                So take what you will but linux really doesn't innovate, it emulates. the kernel itself was driven by the desire to have a free version of unix.

                                Thats reality.
                                Hold your horses, Mr. BeOS-emulator who now also wants to borrow Gallium and is already borrowing deprecated technologies like Mesa. Oh, and a lot of deprecated GNU toolchain (GCC, command-line tools).

                                Here's an idea: Rename Haiku to GNU/BeOS and you have a good description of this "innovative" OS.

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