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Wine Devs Have Mixed Feelings Over Direct3D In Gallium3D

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  • #16
    Originally posted by gordboy View Post
    On the face of it, a plausible idea. But where this idea fails badly is the practicality. Lawyers cost money.
    That's obvious. People donate to the Wine project, you know.

    You know, that stuff your parents give you
    You mean what they gave me during first school? Some people work for their money, gord_boy_... <_<'

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    • #17
      Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
      And so the software vendors make no attempt to support linux, their software ends up NOT running well enough on linux, and those who try eventually go back to windoze because the software they like will only run there.
      In my view, that is not correct. If Wine becomes perfect and can run every single Windows game and program, people like me who use Windows just because Linux does not support some of the important programs will be able to switch to Linux, increasing its popularity and making others aware of it, thus the companies will see that people use Linux and will create native binaries. If they don't, then it's no problem as well - you will still be able to run all the programs on Linux! So you, the user, win every time! And Linux has nothing to lose, too.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
        In my view, that is not correct. If Wine becomes perfect and can run every single Windows game and program, people like me who use Windows just because Linux does not support some of the important programs will be able to switch to Linux, increasing its popularity and making others aware of it, thus the companies will see that people use Linux and will create native binaries. If they don't, then it's no problem as well - you will still be able to run all the programs on Linux! So you, the user, win every time! And Linux has nothing to lose, too.
        That CAN and WILL ***NEVER HAPPEN***.
        You will NEVER be able to run wondoze programs in linux properly. Wine has been in development forever now, and yet it barely works at all. And then you have MS creating things for no purpose other than to f wine up -- it's like hacking satellites, an unending game of cat and mouse.

        If every developer of windoze software *KNEW* that no-way-no-hell would a linux user be able to use it, then at least SOME of them would MAKE AN EFFORT to build a linux version of their software. While they THINK that linux can run their software, there is simply NO INCENTIVE for them to bother.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
          In my view, that is not correct. If Wine becomes perfect and can run every single Windows game and program, people like me who use Windows just because Linux does not support some of the important programs will be able to switch to Linux, increasing its popularity and making others aware of it, thus the companies will see that people use Linux and will create native binaries. If they don't, then it's no problem as well - you will still be able to run all the programs on Linux! So you, the user, win every time! And Linux has nothing to lose, too.
          OS/2.

          And please, people, can we first wait until this D3D code actually DOES SOMETHING USEFUL?

          It's a proof of concept that doesn't DO anything at the moment. It MIGHT offer an alternative to OpenGL on Linux distributions running Gallium3D some time in the future, but at the moment, it's a juicy litigation target that doesn't do anything. No wonder that not everybody is jumping on it.

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          • #20
            From the link:

            My understanding is that this is more than about legality of this code: Microsoft can sue whoever they want, with or without legal basis, and WINE developers want to publicly show beyond doubt that they we're not near even miles from Microsoft code, to deter Microsoft to sue them, and so incur in legal expenses.
            I don't think anyone is seriously concerned that the code is actually illegal. It's all about maintaining distance from Microsoft's code to avoid nuisance lawsuits designed to drain a project of money rather than to actually win.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
              That CAN and WILL ***NEVER HAPPEN***.
              You will NEVER be able to run wondoze programs in linux properly. Wine has been in development forever now, and yet it barely works at all. And then you have MS creating things for no purpose other than to f wine up -- it's like hacking satellites, an unending game of cat and mouse.

              If every developer of windoze software *KNEW* that no-way-no-hell would a linux user be able to use it, then at least SOME of them would MAKE AN EFFORT to build a linux version of their software. While they THINK that linux can run their software, there is simply NO INCENTIVE for them to bother.
              You are right, however it's also a question of here and now what will expand the Linux user base. As mentioned above, Linux being able to run Windows software helps Linux right now more than hinders it because the Linux user base is so small. It's like this:

              When a company is small, it doesn't have much weight to throw around, and it needs all the help it can get. At this point, any PR is good PR, even bad PR, because getting the word out about the existence is actually more helpful than a negative reputation. However, once the company gets bigger and reaches a certain threshold, bad PR can start to be worse than good PR, because you now don't need or want that small amount of support because you have the weight to throw around. In other words, right now the Linux user base is so small that Windows-compatibility is helpful to Linux. Later on though, Windows incompatibility may be more helpful. Microsoft will start having to bend to Linux, not Linux bending to Microsoft.

              Regardless if you agree with that, I will always want to be able to run old Windows programs particularly games on my Linux machine. Wine is much faster than an emulator, so perfecting Wine's ability to run those older programs is great I think. I run many other emulator programs to run old games, don't you? But should new titles be made for an emulator or Wine? No, that's not ideal of course, native solutions are always ideal. Developers do need good, easy APIs though, but surely they know Wine isn't the most ideal API to use for Linux as it is not native. This will matter a lot more once Linux becomes bigger though. Right now, using Wine may be a good way for developers to take care of the 1-10% of Linux users. Ideal for them, not completely ideal for Linux users. That's just the way some developers may choose to view the situation right now from a monetary point of view. If we are talking about non-monetary points of view though then if you want to develop open source, you should certainly be supporting open source operating systems to help encourage that. If you want to get into morals, it is good to do so, too, as you help the poor among other reasons. But, you definitely can't expect most companies to care about morals at all unfortunately...

              Any way, my two cents.

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              • #22
                I'm with those who say "Who cares if Wine uses it".
                The possibilities of
                a) open source drivers for reactOS (and windows(Arr)(C)(TM) itself) with a proper gallium winsys, and
                b) working acceleration for emulators (Other than VMWare, which was already working on a version of DirectX on gallium) running windows ontop of Lixux

                are more than enough to satisfy me.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                  I think that it is very important to STOP COPYING MS!!!

                  ...
                  Seriously? People should really stop using this argument... MS or not, copy at will as long as it's for the best end user's experience! And this is linux for God's sake, if you don't like it just stay away from it.

                  I for one welcome the D3D API on linux. I've been porting a multithreaded app from D3D to OGL and you don't want to know how much I've been suffering with all this mess of wgl/glXMakeCurrent(), XLockDisplay() and yada yada... Why do so many OSS projects use plain C instead of OO C++? What a mess! You should do wrappers for C, not for C++.

                  D3D or not, I just want a good Object Oriented API+Documentation for graphics, and IMO nothing beats D3D's design for now...

                  rant over.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                    You will NEVER be able to run wondoze programs in linux properly. Wine has been in development forever now, and yet it barely works at all.
                    Weird. Last night I was editing a movie script in Final Draft, then I started up Steam, played Left 4 Dead for a bit, then played Fallout 3 for a bit, then shut down Steam and played NOLF.

                    All Windows programs, running on Linux, using Wine.

                    So while it may not run every arbitrary Windows program, I think your 'NEVER' may be rather shorter than you imagine.

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                    • #25
                      People, trying to out-Windows Windows has never worked for any operating system in history. And it has managed to kill at least one major heavyweight: OS/2.

                      More importantly, it has been tried with Linux for more than a decade, and it has NEVER worked for Linux either. Despite Cedega and Codeweavers, and despite Lindows, and other major experiments, which are either dead, or serve niche markets.

                      Marketing yourself as a cheap, almost compatible substitute for the Real Thing (tm) is not going to get Linux taken seriously. Even if it could, it's never been achieved.

                      There is no magic wand, and we have to keep gaining ground the hard way -- through relevant apps (such as Firefox, Webkit, OOo, server stuff, cross-platform toolkits, etc), offering a better system, and fighting for open standards and formats. The solution is NOT introducing all the broken monopolist standards which CANNOT be implemented correctly, and which open us up for all sorts of patent litigation, hoping that if we can implement them better than MS, then everyone will switch.

                      The reason we don't have games is that major companies are not interested in us. You can implement D3D, and they STILL won't be interested in us. You'll be stuck running things through (half-working) emulation layers and wondering why everyone isn't switching, while the companies are developing for that other platform and you're stuck playing catch-up. The same story for the last 10 years, and people still don't learn.

                      Any company which releases games for consoles and PC can EASILY make Linux ports, as long as they plan properly from the beginning. Linux is FAR more similar to Windows than PS3 is. They don't want to do it, because they don't care. And even with a fake windows environment that implements half of the Windows userspace libraries, they still won't care.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by movieman View Post
                        So while it may not run every arbitrary Windows program, I think your 'NEVER' may be rather shorter than you imagine.
                        I first heard that line around 10 years ago, and I'm still waiting.

                        My guess is that 10 years from now, we still won't be running arbitrary Windows programs without serious issues on Linux.

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                        • #27
                          droidhacker, have you actually worked with Direct3D before? What I've heard from mdias, among others, is that it is a much nicer API to work with. Legal issues aside, Linux should strive for the best, regardless of where the technology comes from. I often hear it said that C# is a great language. Do you think Mono was a bad idea?

                          Also, your comments read like someone who hasn't even used Wine in the past two years. I've found it to be a lot more reliable since the 1.0 release. True, it'll never be perfect, but it works a lot better than you give it credit for.

                          Also, Direct3D could be used to port games natively, instead of through Wine.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Chewi View Post
                            droidhacker, have you actually worked with Direct3D before?
                            No, and I'll avoid it like the plague it is.

                            What I've heard from mdias, among others, is that it is a much nicer API to work with.
                            Sure, until you meet the lawyers.

                            Legal issues aside, Linux should strive for the best, regardless of where the technology comes from.
                            Then stick with what IS the best and avoid the nastiness that MS IS.

                            I often hear it said that C# is a great language.
                            Uh, sure. If you don't mind a "language" that is nothing but VB with C-like syntax.

                            Do you think Mono was a bad idea?
                            Does "yum remove *mono*" answer your question?

                            Also, your comments read like someone who hasn't even used Wine in the past two years. I've found it to be a lot more reliable since the 1.0 release. True, it'll never be perfect, but it works a lot better than you give it credit for.
                            From time to time I look at it to laugh at the absurdity. It goes away very fast after that.

                            Also, Direct3D could be used to port games natively, instead of through Wine.
                            You seem to be confused... do you realize that there is more to getting windoze crapware running on linux than emulating D3D? UNLESS THE ENTIRE THING IS BUILT FOR LINUX, IT WILL ALWAYS REQUIRE WINE.... and AS LONG AS WINE EXISTS, NOBODY'S GOING TO BOTHER.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                              No, and I'll avoid it like the plague it is.


                              Sure, until you meet the lawyers.


                              Then stick with what IS the best and avoid the nastiness that MS IS.


                              Uh, sure. If you don't mind a "language" that is nothing but VB with C-like syntax.


                              Does "yum remove *mono*" answer your question?


                              From time to time I look at it to laugh at the absurdity. It goes away very fast after that.


                              You seem to be confused... do you realize that there is more to getting windoze crapware running on linux than emulating D3D? UNLESS THE ENTIRE THING IS BUILT FOR LINUX, IT WILL ALWAYS REQUIRE WINE.... and AS LONG AS WINE EXISTS, NOBODY'S GOING TO BOTHER.
                              With every post you are diminishing your argument by showing that you have no objectivity. If you left your emotions behind you would see that C# is a great language for its purpose. We don't need to write everything in assembly language or even C.
                              If calm down more people might listen to your argument against the Gallium Direct 3D tracker.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by droidhacker View Post
                                ...
                                You seem to be on a anti-microsoft-related-software movement for no reason at all. Having D3D support is a major milestone for running most MS Windows games on linux, which should slowly attract new users to linux or even allow developers to develop D3D apps without booting into windows to test.

                                Anyway, if D3D is that much of a problem why doesn't someone (like Khronos) come up with a new API that is comparable to D3D in terms of cleanness, power and ease of use? In all honesty I think few developers prefer OGL's design to D3D's... But I'd welcome something new as well, OGL is a 90's bloated API that is flawed by design (no OOP, not easy to use multiple devices, not easy to multithread..)

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